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Another Long Time Lurker

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Posted

Randy Himes from Southern PA.

I have been a long time follower of the site on and off at times but always soaking up information wishing to sometime build or own an Avid.  Been following the Avids since around 1998 dreaming of flying one someday.  Roughly three weeks ago I finally bought a kit that was a complete practically unstarted Mark IV.  Only the fuselage was painted and that was it.  Returned today to pick up items that were missing after doing an inventory of the parts.  Funny thing is......it was some large items that should not have been missed like the tail feathers & prop but also a box of many small items.

1992 Avid Flyer Mark IV #1199D Speedwing Tailwheel  (fuselage painted white & red) Currently no engine but was to be a 582 and will probably still go that route

Possibly looking at trying to get extension kit from new Avid for the speed wings, maybe add nose wheel to convert back and forth as see fit, would like to do added width option that Jim Chuk did to his.

Looking forward to soaking up more info moving forward and getting answers to my many questions to come through the process.  Thanks to all on the site so far!!!

Trying to finish the garage it is going to be built in so I can have some Building FUN!  Should start building in next few days since I now know I have just about all of the parts. (only a few missing)

Randy from PA

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Posted

Welcome aboard!  Looking forward to seeing the build pics and most of all seeing the first flight pics and smiles!  Thank you for your very generous contribution to the site.  Don't hesitate to ask questions if you get hung up on something.  

:BC:

 

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Posted

There will be those that disagree, and I will be the first to admit there is no "right" final airplane for everyone, but you have a real MKIV based on that serial number. That is awesome. You are also at a time of the build where the world is open to you as far as possibilities.

I would recommend that you consider getting a used 80 HP 912 and installing that on the plane instead of going with the 582. I flew behind 582's for over 1200 hours and loved it. I never had an incident and was confident flying anywhere over all kinds of terrain. Still there was the negative aspect of all the maintenance and stress of having to constantly "fly" the engine as well as the aircraft. At the time I was flying almost 200 hours/year since I was a new pilot and it was exciting to fly any chance I could. That amounted to me taking the engine off every 150 hours and inspecting and cleaning and replacing gaskets etc. so I could be 100% confident it would take me where I wanted to go. Rotax recommends 75 hour inspections but I found that doubling all of their numbers worked for me. Not too bad but still a lot of work with frequent downtime. More work if you stick exactly to rotax recommendations. Also TBO is only 300 hours, although I stretched mine to 600. 

Anyway I finally sold that plane and started flying behind a four cycle. First behind a lycoming on my Magnum and now behind a 912 in my Fat Avid. Life is much better behind four cycles in my opinion. Here are some reasons you might want to consider.

1) MUCH less maintenance. More time to fly. All you do is change oil and plugs, perform oil analysis (which you cannot do with two cycles) look out for normal wear and tear and fly for 1500-2000 hours without major maintenance.

2) Better reliability. Even though I never had a reliability problem with two strokes my observation of the world around me is that people in general have more issues leading to engine failure with two strokes  than four strokes.

3) More power and performance. The extra 15 HP of the 912 will feel like twice the power in the plane, climb like a homesick angel and have much more speed for LESS fuel consumption

4) no two stroke oil to buy mix or deal with pumps and reservoirs. Good two stroke oil is not cheap and adds to the cost of fuel consumption which is already much worse that for four stroke.

5) My numbers may be off a bit, but your average 582 powered Avid is probably worth 15K. A good 912 powered Avid is worth 5-10K more, and more in demand.

6) The whole time I was flying behind my two strokes (I had two engines to keep flying..one on the bench and one on the plane to minimize downtime) I always wanted to upgrade to higher performance, less maintenance and the peace of mind. Once I got behind the four stroke I felt like I had arrived at the destination...and still feel that way.

7) if you have a nice 912 install and your intent is NOT to fly the small plane just so you can keep upgrading to bigger and bigger planes, You will have a plane you might very well want to keep for a lifetime. I don't think the two stroke will give you that feeling.

8) If you get a used 80 HP 912 and fly it for a while and want crazy performance you can always install a 100 HP piston kit.

The ONLY downside I see to going ROTAX 912 is not the engine. Those pop up at super reasonable prices all the time now that the engine has been on the market a long time. It might be getting the engine mount. But I think there are folks making them. You can use your existing cowl with no modification except to cut an additional hole in front to feed the radiator air.

I would stay away from automotive 4 cycle conversions. I know there are those who successfully drive behind them, but for the most part they are not as proven or reliable as the trusty 912 and they are a LOT heavier. Unacceptably heavier unless the air frame is modified to accommodate the weight and balance.

I would not have spent all this time typing to someone I don't know unless I really believed what I am saying and really believed you will be happier with the fruit of your labor. And you have the right plane and are at the perfect crossroads to make an important decision. I hope you don't take this as advice from a know it all that no one wants to listen to.

Your project looks awesome! Welcome to the Avid group!

Chris

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Posted

akflyer

Your Very Welcome!  I will try to keep active with progress on the site as much as I can.  Looking forward to it!

Thanks for your kind words

Randy

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Posted

Chris 

Thank you for all your insight between the different engines.  It definitely gives me something to mull over!  I really would like to have a 4cycle as they are a little more forgiving but I also know that most of the time anything well taken care should/will last longer.

I used to race motocross many years ago through the 2 cycle era and what a pain in the ASS at times with the 2 strokes.  I was constantly rebuilding the head from the piston marring it all up.  I'm going to go out on the limb here and say I think that the motocross was a lot more demanding on the engine in a sense due to constant RPM changes in very short intervals.  Compared to being in the air where there is more constant RPMs overall.

So I do really understand what you are saying in regards to these engines especially taking into consideration your going to be in the air and not on a track on the ground.  I have read many success stories with the 582 including yours and many unsuccessful stories as well which makes me question some of what I would like to do.  I have a comparison chart between the 582/912 but just can't seem to find it right now.  It basically shows through the TBO of the 912 (including everything that needs to be done to it) the 582 wins hands down with costs even rebuilding every 300 hrs.  So I think that is what is still keeping me hanging on to possibly try the 582 at least for a while.  Initial cost and maintenance costs being better the whole way through.  In retrospect as you mentioned there is a lot less down time due to much less maintenance with the 912. 

I was thinking that you had to do the stretch to get the 912 to work?  Maybe with all my reading about different topics I might have gotten mixed with all the auto conversions and all.

Anyways I do appreciate you taking the time to give me your opinion and info from experience on this topic.  I'm sure we will converse more about this while moving forward on this project.

And Yes it is a Mark IV with all that I can tell with the paperwork and the key features and parts account for it.  Yay!!!

Again Thanks for your input and kind words

Randy

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Posted

Randy,

You can put the 912 on it without doing the stretch.  That was more for Subie conversions.  You may have to move the battery aft to keep the CG you want, but you wont need a fuse stretch.

Joey is just getting some time in his MK IV extended speed wing and he has the same findings I had when I flew one.  The extended speed wing is a bad ass bird and will perform every bit as well if not better than the STOL wing.  When you build the wing, only use 1/2" to 3/4" of twist in it.  Add some VGs and you will have one SWEET flying bird.

I am hoping once I get settle into my new shop I will have some time to actually work on my own projects and build another set of wings for mine.  I am still torn between using the Avid speed wing, KF IV or supercub airfoil. 

:BC:

 

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Posted

Hi Randy,

The article you are referring to is discussing the purchase of New 912 and 582's. It's old and was written in the early days of the 912 when they were rare and none were available used. Once you dive into the realm of used the equation changes....dramatically!. They don't pop up all the time but I'v seen two 80 HP 912's in the last year sell (locally) in the 4K range. That may not happen often, but it DOES happen. 6K is not uncommon at all.

You can do a lot of building before you actually NEED the engine. You can wait and wait for the right deal to come up. If you are patient it will. Trust me on this. It cost me $2K in parts to rebuild my 582's (new crank and oversized pistons and gasket kits and having the cylinders bored) I always did all the cleaning and assembly myself. 912 TBO is 1500-2000 hours depending on model year. The value proposition changes drastically with a good used 912.

If you fly the 912 the same speed as the 582 will take the MKiV (about 80) it will consume about HALF the fuel. That's how much more efficient it is. However realistically you would run the 912 harder than that because it won't be as happy as running a bit harder. But you will save on fuel (and oil) and go much faster every time you fly which really ads up.

You DO NOT need to stretch the MKIV to install the 912. You will need to mount your Odyssey PC680 battery (my current favorite of the lead acid offerings) as far back in the tail as possible though. That can be done by making a small triangular access door.

Let it brew before you make the final decision. I assure you you won't regret installing a 912 and it is likely you could regret not installing a 912 after building it with a 582 even as good as the 582 is.

OK I'll stop now and won't push the 912 any more unless you ask :-)

Chris

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Posted

akflyer

That Sounds Great!!!  #1. I don't need a stretch for the 912 and #2. That the extended speedwing seems to be going well for Joey and your personal results in the great performance.  I was already planning on adding VGs too.  So it sounds like I am starting down the right road with the upgrade to the wings to end up with a Great Bird.  Guess I need to reach out again to Mark at New Avid and get the parts I need to extend my wings before I get started on the wings.

 

Chris

Again thanks for all your input regarding the 912.  I really would like to have the 912 as it being a 4 stroke but was leaning back to the 582 obviously for cost reasons.  But after some of your info I definitely would prefer the 912.  Have to see how it all works out.

No worries about pushing the 912 I appreciate all the info as it helps to prepare for the right decision down the road.  If you do see a good deal out your way please let me know.  I would just have it shipped.

 

Thanks guys

Randy

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