Selling aircraft/widow's liability

[1avidflyer 1983]

Hi guys, I know this topic has come up often before, but here is the situation. A friend of mine owned an Avid Flyer A model, and he passed away last December. I told him I would help his wife sell the plane if that's the way things went. He was the builder of the plane, and so now his wife is worried about liability if she sells the plane to someone else. She may want to part it out to avoid that worry. What would you say to her if you were me? I'll be doing all the work either way it goes. Thanks, JImChuk

[lv2plyguitar 172]

A bill of sale that includes language releasing her from any and all liability is sufficient. 

[marksires 484]

Agree with IV2plyguitar.  I believe you can get a sale contract with liability release boilerplate from the EAA.  Nothing will stop someone from suing you if they think they can get something, but it will make it more difficult, which will thin the ambulance chaser herd.

Mark

 

[flywise 169]

I hate these greedy lawyers...all about money, no ethics. Has killed many small industries including GA aircraft makers.

I have had 11 business ideas and all had to be rejected because of potential liability issues....  Sad world

 

My 2 cents

[EDMO 1078]

Agree with IV2plyguitar.  I believe you can get a sale contract with liability release boilerplate from the EAA.  Nothing will stop someone from suing you if they think they can get something, but it will make it more difficult, which will thin the ambulance chaser herd.

Mark

 

I agree with Mark - If you have any doubts about a bill of sale with liability exclusion protecting the widow, then definitely get the EAA liability protection statement - scrapping a good plane for parts isn't necessary, and can cause unneeded problems and expenses for the buyer.  EDMO

Edited 9 Apr 2018 by EDMO

[Yamma-Fox 403]

Not a lawyer here, but if the plane is not current on the CI then I think the next person that signs the CI takes a lot of responsibility.

That is how it works with certified annuals and the AP / IA's carry insurance for it.... which sucks for all of us and I am in 1000% agreement with flywise on the tort reform subject!

I haven't seen the EAA liability release but I bet it claims the seller provides no guarantees and calls for a thorough qualified inspection by the buyer before flying.

 

Edited 9 Apr 2018 by Yamma-Fox

[C5Engineer 1170]

No one has ever successfully been sued in this scenario based on the research I did. A parted out A model is worth almost nothing. Not sure if she needs the money but parting it will greatly lower the chances it’ll sell and will devalue it by about 75%. It deeply saddens me to see people hack up perfectly good airplanes. Here’s a prime example of a project my dad picked up several years ago. Family was worried about liability and hacksawed the wing tips off and tore it apart. Before and after pics below. 

[1avidflyer 1983]

Thanks, guys for all the replys.  Looks like the plane is most likely going to get parted out.  It's an A model Avid Flyer with the long (STOL) wing.  242 hrs total on the plane, has a 3203 Hirth 65 HP engine that was installed new last fall.  5 hrs total on the engine.  I am going to be doing the sale of the pieces unless she changes her mind on parting it out.  If anyone is interested in any parts of it, let me know.  Sure is kind of sad, he's gone, and now the plane will go away as well.   JImChuk

[EDMO 1078]

I hope you can convince her that the liability clause will protect her, but that no part of the plane needs to be cut or destroyed - She only needs to check the "Salvage" on the registration and send that to the FAA, making it no longer a registered plane, and then selling all the parts, (even to one person), for less money than she would have gotten for a registered plane.  EDMO

Edited 11 Apr 2018 by EDMO

[1avidflyer 1983]

Yes Ed, she wants to sell off the parts and plans to deregister the plane.  I told her to think about it for a few more days and then tell me one way or the other.  JImChuk

[Torch 18]

Is the airplane in Minnesota?

[1avidflyer 1983]

Yes, the plane is in Mn.   JImChuk

[Geoffrey Thorpe 31]

What happens is someone has an accident after installing one or more parts?  Perhaps the engine fails because of some internal fault...

 

I'm  not seeing that parting it out protects you from liability.

[1avidflyer 1983]

The odds of a successful suit for a flying plane is very slight.  For just parts?  Much more slim.  I suppose a lawyer could sue someone who just walked by the plane as well, but is it likely??  JImChuk

[EDMO 1078]

An older lady lived in the house across the street, next to about 100 acres of vacant forest land, from the house I had just bought in 2005 - I had big dumptrucks bringing rock for the foundation of a circle drive I was going to put concrete on.  She told the older couple who lived next door to me that the trucks caused a tree to fall, (about 200 feet from her house and the street), in the forest.  I figured then that I might get a lawsuit for that or anything else she could blame on me, like a crack in her foundation.  Fortunately, it never came, but I never trusted her after that.  You never know how a lawyer will try to make money!   But, as Joey said, and what I have heard from others: "There have been no successful lawsuits against the seller of an Experimental plane."  

I wish someone would copy and post the EAA Liability Disclaimer Clause on here.  EDMO

Edited 12 Apr 2018 by EDMO

[dholly 718]

Jim, the EAA boilerplate is not sufficient according to my attorney. Yes, he likes to make work for himself but I thought he made some excellent points. Particularly about the need to incorporate state specific law. I had him rewrite the EAA Liability Release to include whatever he thought prudent and have used that ever since in several transactions. Nothing will prevent a lawsuit from an ambulance chasing, contingency compensated scumbag, including Corp or LLC ownership, but the harder you make it the better. Best protection is limited assets and minimal future earnings potential, i.e. Estate sale by Widow Personal Representative!

[marksires 484]

Jim, the EAA boilerplate is not sufficient according to my attorney. Yes, he likes to make work for himself but I thought he made some excellent points. Particularly about the need to incorporate state specific law. I had him rewrite the EAA Liability Release to include whatever he thought prudent and have used that ever since in several transactions. Nothing will prevent a lawsuit from an ambulance chasing, contingency compensated scumbag, including Corp or LLC ownership, but the harder you make it the better. Best protection is limited assets and minimal future earnings potential, i.e. Estate sale by Widow Personal Representative!

The problem with the state issue is you need to consider ALL the state laws.  They could initiate the lawsuit in the state you live, the state they live, a state the accident occurred in, a state they flew over, a state they thought about flying to......

Mark

 

[dholly 718]

Not exactly. An agreement must incorporate specific criteria of the State in which the transaction occurs (usually the Sellers domicile) to make it a valid legal contract. In NY, there is something called the 'Place of Performance Rule" that presumes intent of the parties is that the Law of the place where the contract is to be performed governs. However, most agreements actually identify the jurisdiction and venue. Typical wording would say something like "This agreement shall be governed solely by the laws of the State of _________ and any claims related to this agreement shall be filed in the County of ________, State of ______.

[Columbus 30]

Not an A&P or even close however, I have over the years probably built over 100 motorcycles. When I  say built, I do mean BUILT. I have my own frame jig and at one time had a full machine shop with engine building capabilities. I have been taken to court twice by people who thought they had me (they were stupid or had momentary stupidity with less than stellar results and were quite certain they had a payday coming...One purchaser tried to jump a 9’ chopper over a Dodge Neon)

ANYWAY

ALL I did (on advice of an attorney) was to include on the BOS was to include, “This is an amateur built vehicle and doesn’t not conform to industry standards. There are no warranties either expressed or implied and purchaser accepts full responsibility for this vehicle”...it should sound somewhat familiar to anyone here.... for good reason.

It won’t stop some @hole from suing yet it is HIGHLY effective in keeping them from winning.

The bike is the last one I built- I rode her for 10years before I sold her to buy my Avid

Edited 13 May 2018 by Columbus