Perfoming oil injection delete on Rotax 582?

18 posts in this topic

Posted

Hi guys

I am thinking about doing an oil injection delete on my 582. Pros and cons?

Anyone have the procedure to do it? Parts required?

Thanks Brooks

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Posted

I thought about removing the oil injection on mine but from what I have read, they are very reliable. You are probably more likely to forget to mix oil in the gas than the chance of a oil injection pump failure.

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Posted

 

 

Two things I initially took from this video: this guy has ADD, and an oil injector pump failure sent a rod through his block. 

After 10 minutes or so of babbling, he explains the cause of the engine failure. The engine was previously starved of oil from someone not purging the air out of the oil pump. Like I have heard others say, these engines are murdered...

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Posted

Removed mine and been happy ever since! Mix amsoil 100:1 saber in the gas and runs great. If I recall, I made an aluminum plate that replaced the oil pump and then installed a piece of Tygon tubing between the injector nipples to close them off. Engine runs a lot cleaner and smoother. Good luck, Bryce

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Posted

It's been a while since I drove a 582. As I recall you set the injector marks at the 3000 RPM level. Below 3000 RPM the mixture was 70:1 and above it went to 50:1.

Since I was using NEO 100% synthetic oil I could mix at 100:1 which gave me more power and a cleaner engine.

The NEO is twice the price, but you only use half as much.

I changed to a Jabiru 2200 years ago and haven't looked back.

 

John M

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Posted

I'll give an opposing point of view. The oil injection pump is prolly the most reliable thing on the whole engine. It auto leans the oil at idle...a good thing. And you never have to worry about remembering if you actually put oil in your gas. 

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Posted

I'll give an opposing point of view. The oil injection pump is prolly the most reliable thing on the whole engine. It auto leans the oil at idle...a good thing. And you never have to worry about remembering if you actually put oil in your gas. 

I see the same on outboard forums as well.  People badmouth the Evinrude VRO pump, yet it is almost always operator error that causes a melt down.

When I put gas in the tanks I check the oil tank.  I keep the tanks in the planes, boats and sleds topped off.  Air in the system is about the only way they can fail and the only way to get air in the system is if you let the oil get too low.  Pretty much the same way you can burn down your car engine.

Oil is the life blood of a 2 stroke.  Plugs are cheap.  Run it a touch rich on the oil and it will save your ass when your not paying attention and let your EGTs spike. 

To each his own but I have MANY MANY 10s or thousands of miles running various 2 smokes and have yet to burn one down due to oil injection issues.

:BC:

 

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Posted

Just a idea to think about. The oil injection nozzles on a Bing carb sit about 2-3 inches from the crankcase chamber. The oil does not have time to mix with the gas from the jet. The gas gets circulated throughout the crankcase, but the oil being heavier does not get circulated as well as the gas to the end bearings. With oil/gas premix, it is mixed prior to going thru the jets so it gets circulated to all nooks and crannies. The oil will not get atomized as fine of a mist as the gas, so it doesn't get circulated as well as with premix. Most 582 failures are with the end bearings wearing, and since most 582's are oil injected, this might play into it. 503's are generally not oil injected (though many are) so they tend to last or at least the end bearings, a little longer. I am not advising oil injection or am I against it, just giving my take on the subject.  I, for one, will not use oil injection on any of my engines for this reason. I have no proof of any of this theory or claims to back it up. Just my worthless hillbilly opinion!

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Posted

So here's another con.  Of course it's way more convenient when stopping for gas on a cross-country, as you don't have to guess how much petrol you're going to buy, then add the appropriate amount of oil to the gas tank before filling the tanks, but here's another reason: If you do any cruising at high altitude, such as if you're going over high or difficult terrain, you will likely want a leaning system as well, so your engine is not running overly rich on fuel, reducing your range.  However, running leaned out at altitude, and likely at higher RPM, with premix, less gas means less lubrication, whereas with the oil injection you get the same oil flow, even though you're burning less fuel.  The OI system only responds to two things: engine speed (RPMs) and throttle position.  My bird was set up for premix, and I am going back to the OI system, principally for these two reasons.  Reason 3: every time I go to fly, I have to pull a couple of plugs, and shake & wipe them clear of oil so my engine will start.  With the OI system putting proportionally less oil in at idle, maybe this inconvenience will be mitigated.

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Posted

This is a great discussion. I will throw my experience in. I flew a bit over 1200 hours behind the 582. About 900 using a leaning device. I believe John M has has even more hours behind 582s.

John M chose (sort of pioneered in my limited experience) a valid strategy of pre mixing a very high quality (synthetic I believe) oil at a 100:1. It worked well for him for him, and I imagine would work well for anyone who uses that strategy. That does not mean it is the only viable strategy. And I am not saying John claims it is the only viable strategy.

I believe an equally valid strategy is to use the oil pump. I like it for the convenience and I like it because you cannot forget to mix oil or get confused as to whether you mixed oil in the gas or not. For somewhat forgetful me, that is worth a lot. It is a fact that the oil pump is indeed very reliable. Another bonus is that the pump leans at idle. A good thing that helps prevent build up in the cylinders between cleanings.

I know both John and I have had equally long times between overhauls and have found very clean engine innards when disassembled for inspection and cleaning.

I believe in leaning two strokes on the ground and at altitude. Within limits. I do not believe just anyone should employ a leaning device without really understanding what it is doing, being very clear on how and when to use it, and always remembering to enrich when not at altitude. I can see a lot of potential for making a mistake and forgetting to enrich then taking off lean and causing engine damage. However my experience was positive using a leaning device.

As for using a leaning device, the device will not deprive the engine of adequate oil if used properly. I flew leaned at over 11,000 feet over the continental divide as well as flying routinely at 8000 - 9000 feet over the Cascades for extended periods with no evidence of lack of lubrication during routine tear downs.

I would say however that improperly used, if you don't "fly" a two stroke engine with a leaning device as closely as you fly the plane, it would be easy to get into trouble and burn an engine up. So a leaning device is definitely not for everyone.

Chris

 

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Posted

Turbo: One of the downsides of the oil pump is I think (but do not know for sure) that it is the source of excess oil that puddles in the cylinders may be oil leaking past the pump. I've always used the pump and I have occasionally had the oil puddle and foul plugs. It would be interesting to know other's experience. Does oil puddling only occur with oil pump engines, or does it occur with non injected engines? If you are saying you are getting puddling with a non injected engine, oil must be coming by the rings, in which case switching to the pump will not fix the problem.

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Posted

I find it interesting that at the back (or front, can't remember now) that there is a little oil collection funnel that collects oil in the crankcase and directs it to the main bearings. This little funnel is non functional when the engine is run inverted. Question: If that little "funnel" were not believed to be necessary, why did Rotax design it into the 582? I've always wondered that ever since I took mine apart for the first time and noticed it.

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Posted (edited)

Never had an oil pump (Rotax 532 and Simonini Victor 2), always used premix and always had oil puddle in the cylinders. And running the engine dry makes absolutely no difference. 

Edited by FredStork

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Posted

So it must come past the rings when the engine is in a certain rotation position or something like that, because on my engine it did it infrequently, but when it did there was a puddle not just a drop or damp plugs...Thanks for that feedback!

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Posted

Yup,must get past the rings, as my drifter (inverted 503) with premix needs the plugs washed if left unused for more than two weeks.The oil injection on my 582 fox has an interesting quirk, the pump must leak but into one carb bowl.During  inspections the rear float chamber has a red colour in it,and on startup will start well then run rough with a lot of smoke.My brothers 582 fox has exactly the same quirk.

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Posted

What's more common, primers or choke (enrichment circuit)? I've always had better starting performance from primers and lower maintenence from chokes (primer orings tend to leak by with infrequent use). My mkiv is premix, haven't had to clean plugs to start  it yet, all 5 times 

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Posted

The Questions you should be asking is What Fails on the Oil Injection. On 532 UL, 582UL, 618UL, 670's is the Gear Hub Hole which is D Shaped. So what can be done to make it better? On the other Type of Oil Injection, 277UL, 377UL, 447UL, 503UL, it's the Long Plastic Shaft that is Square on the end where it goes into the Crank Square Hole. So what can be done to make it better. Ask Rotax Rick who has built over a 1000 Rotax's now, how many 582's have Failed account of Rotax's Oil Injection. He doesn't use it on his 670's. I want to say 3 out of every 5, 582's. He uses 40:1 Amsoil Interceptor(also a few other Oils) Premixed in his 670's (93hp@6400rpm) which last I knew had a 450hr TBO! He also use's Ceramic Top Coated Pistons as does Rotax Joe on his 582's.

There is many People running the Full Synthetics at 80:1 - 100:1, like Hirths Blue Max, Amsoil Saber. Rotax Joe says, he is seeing 700+hrs on his 582's he's Re-Built using a Ceramic Top Coated Piston with Moly Coated Sidewalls with Amsoil Saber Pre-Mixed at 100:1 with No De-Carbons.

A Skidoo/Rotax 521/532UL, 580/582/583/582UL, 617/618UL, 670 all use the same Rotary Valve Intake. There are some New/NOS Billet Non Oil Injection Rotary Valve Intakes out there if you look. The Crank Shop was selling them still. Theere is some Union Bay Racing on eBay right now. The 2nd one I have only seen photo's of it. I think it's Western Power Sports. That Bolt Pattern is real close the WEBER CARB DCOE and WEBER EFI DCOE. Top Holes Match up, Bottom (2) are off.

Maybe make some Oil Injection fixes.

OIL INJECTION FIX.jpg

UBR Intake.jpg

670X - 1.jpg

WEBER DCOE DEMENSIONS.jpg

WEBER DCOE OVERLAY 670 INTAKE.jpg

DCOETBI3.jpg

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Posted (edited)

In answer to Chris' question: I have so far only flown with pre-mix, and have only recently put the OI system back in play.  My wet plugs problem was solved with the longer-tipped plugs, thanks to Fred.  One other issue relative to this question of OI vs premix is that of adequate mixing when buying avgas on a cross-country flight.  Obviously, with premix, you need to know in advance how much gas you'll be buying, so you can add the oil first for better mixing.  But how can you be sure it was mixed well enough?  If you go to the airport cafe for lunch, maybe diffusion will sufficiently level any concentration gradients in the oil-fuel mix - or maybe not.  Airplane wing tanks aren't exactly the best mixing crucible shape, wide and shallow, with far away corners.  Y'all can tell me from experience if inadequate mixing has ever been a problem.  Glad to hear that altitude cruise while leaned is not.

On leakage past the pump while stopped: I have not observed it since the OI installation a few weeks ago.  I made marks on the oil tank, and the level is holding.  I'll keep an eye out for this, though.  Looks like the next W&B will not be with empty oil tank.  Adding oil should be allow me to get an approximate arm for oil in the tank, though.  Relative to another thread, I may take a harder look at API-W3/TC ashless oils, based on Chris' favorable experience with same.

Edited by Turbo

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