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OT: Garbage Pail Politics

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Posted

dholly, if you come to Paris, I can fly there with you in the right seat.

I enjoyed your thread and will never forget that offer, thanks!

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Posted (edited)

Nope as long as we are ruining this site for politics, why should anyone answer your question?

Why?

Because the vast majority of intelligent, responsible adults actually make efforts to discuss their differences Nick. In every corner of our lives, every day. Why should politics be an exception? I know you are a smart guy and I am giving you the opportunity to have respectful dialog, will you make the effort? 

As for "ruining this site for (with?) politics", you are certainly entitled to your opinion. You are even entitled to be 'that guy' who attempts to blow up the thread with an avalanche of derogatory statements and memes instead of dialog. Your choice, though I find it usually is the quickest path to de-legitimization for one's position. IMO, the better path in conversations about political choice or discourse starts with individuals making better personal choices.

I'd like to believe this thread can rise above petty personal attacks and move beyond raw emotion to some real substantive dialog. Just seems way more productive to me but, hey, like Leni says, you don't have to participate in this thread if you disagree or it offends you.

Edited by dholly
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Posted

Gauntlet thrown down.  Why no takers?  Is it because certain positions are idefensible via reason? 

As a small-group animal for tens of millions of years, only trying to live in mega-society for a few thousand, our instincts are to try to scale the default small-group paradigm up to the larger scales.  Just as altruism works inside the implicit accountability of the small group, but seems to fail in the larger societal scales, so does the paradigm itself, as it leads to top-down forms, where corruption sets in, and abuses follow.  This does not optimize happiness & life satisfaction.  Want Big Daddy to take care of you cradle-to-grave?  Or do you see more possibility in watching out for yourself?  We all have the brains to pull this off; we just need to be prudent, i.e. exercise wisdom, either garnished from our own life experience, or learned from a trusted elder.  BTW, I define wisdom as the ability to avoid unforseen negative consequences.  

So what I believe conservatives are saying is: Don't give up your all-important, God-given liberties for goodies like free healthcare or free education, which for their own reasons will rot on the vine.  Eschew the top-down nanny-state that will eventually turn us into dummies, then inevitably begin abusing us, and embrace instead your ability to make your own way as an individual!  In the end we will all be happier and more proud of our accomplishments in life.  The Founders developed something very special, and anyone who advocates ditching it is, in my mind, a damn fool.  But remember: It is a counterinstinctive intellectual construct.  As such it is like an arrow trying to fly backwards; unstable vis-a-vis our everpresent hard-wired instincts.  We all, by our reason and wisdom, bear responsibility for actively keeping it alive.

It goes without saying that:  "When an optimum is reached, all change is negative."  

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Posted

Yes it is telling.

I do believe true liberals used to be advocates of civil, reasoned debate. John Locke, the father of Liberalism, held that "the right improvement in exercise of our reason... [is] the highest perfection that a man can attain to in this life." and that civility -"that general good will and regard for all people which makes anyone have a care not to show in his carriage any contempt, disrespect, or neglect of them"- was the #1 social virtue.

In a free society, traditional values at least need debate. But today's il-liberal attitude, even at its most intellectual, is thoughtlessly dismissive toward conservative principles and values as if they don't even deserve an argument. Rather than attempt to win tolerance for their own beliefs, they attempt to squelch legitimate debate and redefine mainstream conservative arguments as extremism, racism or bigotry. This, of course, completely ignores the liberal in true liberalism.

Our founding fathers found this mentality very dangerous, so much so that Alexander Hamilton addresses it in the very first paragraph of The Federalist Papers [a must read, CLICK HERE]. Our Founders believed that without reflection and reason, politics denegrates into tyranny or mob rule. For them, name calling and dismissing the views of your fellow citizens are the tactics of the mob. Both they and Locke recognized we have profound differences but fellow citizens ALWAYS deserve the presumption of goodwill and good reasons. Do YOU?

This thread is certainly not intended to paint the GOP or conservatives as the model of good moral or political behavior, but I just don't see their willingness to adopt and incite mob violence as a substitute to civil, reasoned debate. Anyone can speculate why liberals no longer engage in reasoned argument with conservatives, but no one can argue whether democrat culture is getting more violent. It clearly is and, as long as that continues, liberals who remain silent and vote for democrats without reason and reflection are voting to increase the violence IMO.

Remember, midterm elections are a referendum on the party in power. To throw one side out, you need to throw the other side back in. What is the coherent ideology of the democrat party? Is just being against a person vs. policy results enough?

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Posted

Turbo, dholly, I agree with both of you. At least to the best of my ability. One thing is for sure, I would not enter a vocabulary contest with either one of you! :)

 

Anything taken to the extreme makes balance difficult to impossible to maintain. Seems to me that the rarest commodity in Washington DC (regardless of party) at present is common sense. If there was a modicum of common sense in these people, the vast majority of 'extremism' would cease to exist.

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Posted (edited)

A little professional courtesy would go a long ways in DC. And I'm talking the real deal, not that "my good friend on the the other side of the aisle" bullcrap either. Everyone in DC has forgotten the Golden Rule but what about the rest of America?

[edit] Ok, maybe not 'everyone' in DC. Rep Steve Scalise who was shot during practice for the congressional baseball game penned a good opinion piece about democrat calls for violence HERE

Edited by dholly

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Posted (edited)

A couple posts back I wondered "What is the coherent ideology of the democrat party?". I did not know exactly and I'm convinced a majority of democrats don't either. So I went directly to their website. HERE is the official Democratic Platform.

Honestly, I gave it a fair shot but never even made it past the Preamble after reading statements like this:

-"Democrats believe the cooperation is better than conflict, unity is better than division, empowerment is better than resentment, and bridges are better than walls."

-"As Democrats, we respect differences of the perspective and belief, and pledge to work together to move this country forward, even when we disagree."

-"Above all, Democrats are the party of inclusion."

-"With this platform we do not merely see common ground, we strive to reach higher ground."

Wtf! Plenty more but you probably get the point. Excuse me if I find those words to be total hollow hogwash when uttered in the context of todays democrat party. Those words are 180* from the party actions we are seeing today! If I can't even take your stated values at face value, seriously, how do you expect me to believe your party plan for the country is even sincere let alone a better path forward? Don't really care which political affiliation you may be or support... Actions speak louder than words, Morals matter. Results matter, i.e. promises made, promises kept. Disinformation isn't limited to dem, GOP pundits or mainstream media. Think independently and listen to your own gut feelings. VOTE !!

Great common ground in these comments:

"This election is more about Democrats and Republicans. It is about who we are as a nation and who we will be in the future. Despite what some say, America is and has always been great - but not because it has been perfect. What makes America great is our unerring belief that we can make it better. We can and we will build a more just economy, a more equal society, and a more perfect union - because we are stronger together."

You may have a different take and are certainly welcome to express it! 

Edited by dholly
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Posted

A couple of quick but interesting reads on topic.

  • 'Who Will Save Democrats From Their Leaders?' -Andrew McCarthy, National Review LINK
  • 'How Democrat Rage Is Destroying America' -Daniel Greefield, Frontpage Magazine LINK

One obvious takeaway is way more folks are repulsed by political violence than embrace it, undeniably. The current polls clearly show dem leaders are going down a rathole promoting unpopular leftist policy values.

I think Principles are what allow you to live a life consistent with your values. Principles connect your values to your actions through concious decision. Having principles that work is essential to getting what you want out of life. I'm encouraged many DNC members have decided to #WalkAway and not promote violence.

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Posted

In a nation with over 20 million illegal aliens, the idea that major Democrats are calling to abolish ICE as thousands of would-be border crashers approach our southern border is surreal. These people are not seeking asylum from persecution in their country and not seeking to assimilate, they are dancing, celebrating and proudly carrying their own native flags for crissakes. This is an orchestrated invasion and I am relieved to hear DJT has declared it a national emergency and is deploying military troops to protect the safety of this country.

These people are pawns, lied to by some evil force like Soros hoping to create a PR disaster timed to the midterm elections. This shit is getting old and tired FAST. It is not Americas obligation or responsibility to accept all of these individuals and a policy of releasing them into society unchecked has proved a disaster. I hope the folks organizing this caravan provides basic humanitatian needs when they are turned away but I'm not holding my breath. Better to educate them now before they get to the border, with info packets about how enforcement of US immigration law applies to them here/now trying to exploit a loophole in our immigration law.

Both Trump and Obama says we need to stop illegal immigration. Vote Red if you want to enforce immigration law and abolish sanctuary cities. Vote Blue if you want to abolish ICE and enforce sanctuary cities. Pretty clear choice IMO.

image.jpg

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Posted

:withstupid:   :lol:  Seems that a certain Chuck Norris flick is coming to mind.  If anyone can say with a straight face that is anything but an invasion and an attempt to completely screw the mid terms I will show you a pathological liar with 0 common sense.

:BC:

I am actually surprised at the participants in this thread and how its kept going.  :BC:

 

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Posted (edited)

The cost of illegal immigration is enormous. These stats will blow your mind:

-Americans are paying more to cover the costs of illegal immigrants having children in the United States than Congress plans to give President Trump in border wall funding this year, according to new analysis of Census Bureau data. LINK

-The new report reveals that women in the United States illegally had 297,000 children in 2014 at a cost of $2.4 billion. 

-That is $800 million more than the Senate has approved for Trump’s border wall this year and enough to pay for the wall over 10 years.

-The report also put a price on the likely Medicaid bill for childbirth and early care to illegal and legal immigrants combined, at $5.3 billion. That is one-fifth the total cost of building the border wall.

-The near 300,000 born to illegals in 2014 is a population the size of Cincinnati.

-The estimated 28,000 births to illegal immigrants in just the Los Angeles metro area is larger than the total number of births in 14 states and the District of Columbia.

-The states with the largest numbers of births to illegal immigrants are California with 65,000, Texas with 51,000, Florida with 16,000, Illinois with 14,000, Georgia with 13,000, New York with 12,000, and New Jersey and North Carolina with 11,000 each.

-Illegal immigrants account for more than one in seven births in the Los Angeles, Las Vegas, San Jose, Dallas, and Houston metro areas. Typically between two-thirds and three-fourths of these births are likely paid for by taxpayers.

Edited by dholly
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Posted

What about threat of infectious disease?

U.S. citizens are put at significant risk by the politically correct acceptance of unscreened immigrants from countries with a high prevalence of infectious diseases, many difficult or impossible to treat. 

Since 2015, two million refugees entered Germany causing a surge in chicken pox, cholera, dengue fever, tuberculosis, leprosy, measles, malaria, meningococcal diseases, hemorrhagic fevers, hepatitis, HIV/AIDS, paratyphoid, rubella, shigellosis, syphilis, typhus, toxoplasmosis, tularemia, trichinellosis, whooping cough, and many fungal and parasitic infections. Here are a few striking examples:

Measles is up more than 450%. Hepatitis B is up 300%. Scabies escalated nearly 3,000%. HIV/AIDS increased 30%. Tuberculosis (TB) is at least 30% higher – but German and U.S. physicians suspect that the incidence of TB is actually far higher than reported, and is being downplayed to avoid causing public outrage over the influx of immigrants. In Germany, more than 40% of TB cases are multi-drug resistant TB (MDR-TB). Dengue fever is up over 25%.

A similar pattern has emerged in the U.S. since the massive increase in illegal border crossings and refugees in 2010. In a briefing to the Arizona Senate in 2016, experts reported that the U.S. is suffering near “pandemic medical issues” due to the continuous influx of illegal aliens and refugees from countries where infectious diseases are widespread.

As of 2016, two states were in the Catastrophic Phase and another 13 were in the Critical Phase of public health impact from these infectious diseases. Arizona was No. 9 of 13 states in the Critical Phase but was expected to move into the Catastrophic Phase by fall of 2016 as a result of people who are latent carriers of disease or who entered the country during the incubation period for a disease. We were unable to learn the current status from personal calls to Arizona county and state officials.

TB is one of the most serious threats. Latent TB can remain dormant for years, even decades. It is alarming that 18% of refugees in Arizona arrive with latent TB, while in the general Arizona population the incidence was only 4%. Multidrug resistant TB (MDR-TB), common in migrants, may cost more than $400,000 per patient, compared with $20,000 for the drug-responsive TB that has been predominant in U.S.-born patients. Treatment of MDR-TB has serious side effects, with no guarantee of success.

U.S. taxpayers pay this cost. In addition, all who might have been exposed to an active case must be screened, followed and possibly treated. Medical screening was one of the core purposes of the Ellis Island immigration center in NY. New arrivals were examined, quarantined if needed, or sent back to the country of origin if they posted a threat to Americans. Not simply released into our general population to lose track of. To protect the health and safety of American citizens we must reinstate our prior health screening practice as outlined on our own centers for disease control and prevention (CDC) website.

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Posted

Have I been living under a rock the last decades? Should we, who fly amateur built experimental aircrafts with non certified engines, now be worried about getting cholera, leprosy and syphilis from asylum seeking immigrants? I mean, I live in France and we get our share of immigration just like Germany... And when I think about it, I'm super exposed as I'm actually a first generation immigrant myself... 

I don't know how to put this in a respectful way... Listing German infection statistics, taken compleatly out of context, and implying that it would by some reason be applicable to the US southern border situation is tinfoil-hat, conspiracy theorist, argumentation.

But you are right about why dengue fever is increasing in southern parts of Europe. It actually is due to illegal immigration - illegal immigration of aedes mosquitoes moving north due to the climate change...

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Posted

Hey Fred, not sure exactly what context you're referring to?

Folks can either agree or disagree with health officials saying the increase of German immigrants is correlated to the increase of infectious disease. They either agree the statistics reported are accurate or not. Or whether they are significant enough to constitute a threat at all, let alone how severe. I guess everybody will fall somewhere between tin foil hat and sticking their head in the sand, eh?

Personally, I believe the correlation has been shown to exist across the EU and it's definitely not a threat taken lightly by US health officials. They obviously don't use words like catastrophic and pandemic about the current situation for no reason. Our CDC follows the health science > public health > policy pathway. They have the resources to do pretty thorough investigations wouldn't you agree? Our US immigration law has strict procedures to ensure the health safety of citizens but many of our lawmakers put politics over policy and fail to enforce the existing immigration law. Border security and legitimate asylum hearings are overwhelmed to the point of ineffectiveness when they allow unchecked mass influx and that hurts everyone. This has enormous consequence in both short and long term and must be addressed.

To be clear, legal immigration has never been an issue with the US. It's part of our fabric. Applicants who follow proper immigration channels to US citizenship are subject to health screening and quarantine if necessary. They are provided compassion and treatment. The infectious disease threat comes from those who breach the southern (or any) US border and enter the US illegally and untreated and expose multiple others. To learn more, including definitions of Migrant, Refugee, Asylum Seeker, Documented and Undocumented, Illegal etc. see details presented in the US Office of Immigration Flow Report on the US Dept of Homeland Security Immigration and Data Statistics webpage. 

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Posted

If you bring in large groups of people from areas with precarious sanitary condition you will obviously get an increased occurance of different diseases. Just like you will get an increase of people with only one leg, or a foot missing, when those large groups arrive from war zones. If you had one case in your country before the arrival and there are 3 cases in the arriving group the increase is an alarming 300% - but there is nothing saying that any German will therefore loose a leg or get leprocy. Yes, infectious diseases is a problem in the immigration groups, but mainly for the immigration group itself. Most likely it is better for them to have this problem in Germany, where they can get treatment, than in their home countries - but that is a different topic.

The text, that I don't think you wrote yourself but copied from somewhere, has a very clear agenda. To create fear. It mixes facts with allegations and easy to draw, but not nessecarily correct, conclusions. 

Making the list long makes it scary but adding irrelevant diseases, some not even transmittable from person to person, questions   the over all credibility - and sincerity. You probably already had toxoplasmosis (and are therefore immunized ), you could most likey not catch leprocy even if you try hard as you are just too healthy. Multi drug resistent stems don't come from under- but from over-medicalized areas (Germany itself in this case) and while syphilis and aids can be transmitted I'm sure you know how to protect yourself. And we could go on...

And just in terms of human decency, referring to one of your previous posts, living in a part of the world where 100% of births are paid for by the tax payers (including for tourists and illegal immigrants...) I cannot be upset by 11% of newborns getting a free ride rather being exposed to the risks of unassisted home births...

And don't forget, what we see on our borders is not the problem but the symptom.

Regards,
Fred

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Posted

Fred, reasoned thoughts but I take a different point of view for reasons you might not expect.

While it doesn't make the stats any less fascinating to me, I understand most of the illnesses mentioned in that piece are easily and inexpensively treatable diseases. IMHO, these are not what US health officials (who's mission does not include fear-mongering) speak of in context of a health crisis. The crisis I believe is the more closely related to initial and ongoing health care costs of treating illegal immigrants, not the possibility or probability of catching an infectious disease from them. In part, I read that the cost of AME in France to provide free health care for illegal immigrants exploded 5x faster than the health care system in general and is billions of dollars in deficit over the past decade. Since France is not the only country struggling with the financial cost of health care for illegal immigrants, the issue needs be taken seriously by the US. But when US health care officials simply stating the obvious is considered controversial, I believe there must be another narrative.

To be clear, I don't think the intent is to inflame readers about the probability of contagion or cost related to untreated illegals. I believe it is just one more effort to promote the vile narrative that conservatives and ordinary Americans who worry about disease and costs from immigration are completely unhinged racists. The reality is, an overwhelming percentage of US citizens oppose open borders and sanctuary cities. Yet whenever you dare disagree with their open border orthodoxy or report inconvenient facts, liberals immediately label you a racist. Never mind the same outspoken, liberal big government advocates for vaccinating every American citizen young or old against every possible condition from the flu to chickenpox to HPV, are the same folks advocating loudest against the common sense idea that we should protect ourselves from foreign infectious diseases or unsustainable health care expense.

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Posted

V O T E !!

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image.thumb.jpg.39bba4a338661c22dadd06f3

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Posted

Get out and ...V O T E !!

Pleased to see the vibe at my polling place today was overwhelmingly positive and happy, nothing like the fear and angst of two years ago. Many people were voting for instead of against candidates again, and they weren't shy about saying so.

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