anybody see this Half VW conversion?

18 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

Edited by Durham66

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

VW engines have been tried many, many times. A few have been successful in certain airframes and applications. This outfit may have a winner but time will tell. If they can run 800-1000 hours without blowing it up or burning it up, then they may have a viable engine. Time will tell.  We've all seen the best engines (their words) disappear in a year or so and never heard from again. Would be nice to have more options though.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I want so badly for there to be a lightweight 4 stroke alternative to the 582, I just don’t know if one exists. I think the limits of prop choices is the big downfall of the direct drive genre’s. I had high hopes for the phaser motor, but it sounds like with limited torque you’ll have to run an IFA.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The big question is why everybody is wanting a 4 stroke engine so bad.  A 4 stroke equal to a 582/3203 two stroke would cost big bucks if it could match weight and horsepower. I for one don't or can't pay 20K for an engine to put on a 9K airframe to fly 50-60 hrs a year. Especially when a 3-4K engine does just fine. Reliability or fuel cost can't be the reason since new 2 strokes are getting close to 4 strokes in reliability and 1-2 GPH difference isn't a deal breaker. It does take a bit of knowledge to operate a 2 stroke safely, but knowledge isn't that expensive to obtain.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

It has a lot of possibilities. Harley engines have been put on airplanes since the beginning but this addresses several issues I've always had with them. First off the standard Harley crankcase is too heavy and most of the rest of the parts. This is using the aluminum jugs and heads. The crankcase must be their own, I've been waiting for someone to market a Mosler style crankcase that would use Harley parts. Harley engines run at a fraction of the speed compared to the typical crotch rocket. There are more after market parts made for Harley Davidson engines than all others so we can look for other jug  and head makers to pick and choose what kind of engine we want to build. I'm curious as to how the cam works in this configuration and who's making them and heat treating them as that might be a weak link. Also the crankshaft must be their own build too.e

Harley has had air cooled engines in aluminum for decades but they used to be only available for racing.

They might have a winner, it should be able to run at low rpm if they kept the basics from the Harley setup. I've always had to work on my Harley but it's never quit on me. It's always been more trouble starting it than keeping it running once started. There were no electric starter buttons when they made mine. The biggest reason I've owned so many rice burners over the years was they had the electric starter. I've sold all but three bikes, I keep a pair of crotch rockets for there electric starters and the Harley because it's so simple to work on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The big question is why everybody is wanting a 4 stroke engine so bad.  A 4 stroke equal to a 582/3203 two stroke would cost big bucks if it could match weight and horsepower. I for one don't or can't pay 20K for an engine to put on a 9K airframe to fly 50-60 hrs a year. Especially when a 3-4K engine does just fine. Reliability or fuel cost can't be the reason since new 2 strokes are getting close to 4 strokes in reliability and 1-2 GPH difference isn't a deal breaker. It does take a bit of knowledge to operate a 2 stroke safely, but knowledge isn't that expensive to obtain.

If your making a two cylinder engine that's about the same weight and horsepower only it's 4 stroke, your TBO should just about double since it's turning at half the speed making them cheaper in the long run. Plus less spark plugs to change because of fowling.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Thinking about the hours that the average person would fly, a high TBO is not a big issue. Time will do more harm than hours. And I've never had a plug foul out in a CDI ignition. Changing spark plugs once a year for $3 each for 12 bucks isn't worth talking about. But hey, its your money, butt in the seat, and your peace of mind.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

They might want to be careful about using Harley products. Harley has high dollar Lawyers that will be knocking on there door. Shutting the operation down. Sorry to say, it has happened in the past.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

An outfit called Hog Air was using Harley engines and parts for aircraft. Pretty successful  too. Till Harley got wind of it and threatened them. I believe it was also over the name was the big issue, since Harley registered the "Hog" name. Might have something to do with the parts, also.  You buy something at a yard sale and the company that made it can still tell you how to use it! Only in the lawyer rich United States. Gotta love lawyers!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

The owner of this company is currently installing one of these VW conversions in A model 1 Kitfox. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I hope it does very well ! More options cause producers to make refinements to their existing engines to stay viable in this rocky market. Wish them all the success in the world. A flying engine in a proven airframe trumps a display engine any day. Two stroke or four stroke, if its proved to work, I'd consider it. Nothing I do is carved in stone so I'd consider swapping engines for something better, more power, and reasonable in price. But I'd say if it succeeds then the price will go up. As it usually does.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

With all of the Apex and RX1 engines going into airplanes, there will eventually be someone come up with an adapter for the 2-cylinder versions in the Phazer and other smaller snowmobiles.  These motors would be another candidate to use. IMO better than a butchered VW engine.

The 600cc Rotax ACE motor has been around for several years now, too.  70-ish HP with fuel injection and all of the modern amenities.

 

Edited by Av8r3400

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

One advantage of current 2 strokes is they are not dependent on a battery to run. Fuel injection systems are great, efficient and smooth but are computer controlled.  One can look at a carb and tell if something isn't right. A computer rarely fails but with all the electrical connections required, one faulty connection can shut the whole works down. Unless you are an expert, tracking down that one connection can drive you nuts. If one is running a fuel injection system, the electrical system and connections HAVE to be the best they can be. Not the usual soup sandwich I usually see. Most engines do not fail, they are murdered!

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

I just found a Jabiru 2200 engine on barnstormers that I put in the for sale section.  Worth taking a look at I think.  I do like the one I have.  JImChuk

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

With all of the Apex and RX1 engines going into airplanes, there will eventually be someone come up with an adapter for the 2-cylinder versions in the Phazer and other smaller snowmobiles.  These motors would be another candidate to use. IMO better than a butchered VW engine.

The 600cc Rotax ACE motor has been around for several years now, too.  70-ish HP with fuel injection and all of the modern amenities.

 

Not a fan of engines designed to develop their horsepower at 11,000 rpm. I want an engine designed to develop it's power at low rpm to avoid reduction drives. Also most of the after market heads and jugs for a Harley are not made by Harley Davidson. Less likely to be put out of business by Harley Davidson since they are not Harley parts. I doubt that Harley carburetor is even a Harley part; Harley has been using other company carburetors since they began.

A couple of main reasons the VW engine has been so widely accepted in the aviation world is it's fairly low rpm and parts availability.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Having ridden Harleys for years, they don't make peak power in an RPM range that will swing a prop and the crank bearings won't support or bear the twisting of a prop either.  A reduction will be needed.  It will be heavy and will require much custom work to make it function.  At the end of the day you may get it to work but it won't perform as well as a 582 or even a 503.

We have seed the VW topic so many times...  The only few that work, even slightly well, are in speedy, small craft turning very small diameter (60" or less) propellers at higher RPM (3500-4000).   In the near 40 years of Avids and Kitfoxes, it has been proven time and again VWs DON'T work in these planes.  They perform terribly, have overheating issues and are far from reliable.

 

If you want a reliable engine without a reduction, get a C65 Continental.  The weight will be similar to a redrive VW and only a few pounds more than a redrive HD.

Edited by Av8r3400
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Having ridden Harleys for years, they don't make peak power in an RPM range that will swing a prop and the crank bearings won't support or bear the twisting of a prop either.  A reduction will be needed.  It will be heavy and will require much custom work to make it function.  At the end of the day you may get it to work but it won't perform as well as a 582 or even a 503.

We have seed the VW topic so many times...  The only few that work, even slightly well, are in speedy, small craft turning very small diameter (60" or less) propellers at higher RPM (3500-4000).   In the near 40 years of Avids and Kitfoxes, it has been proven time and again VWs DON'T work in these planes.  They perform terribly, have overheating issues and are far from reliable.

 

If you want a reliable engine without a reduction, get a C65 Continental.  The weight will be similar to a redrive VW and only a few pounds more than a redrive HD.

This is not a V configuration engine so why would you make such a statement? There is no way they are using a conventional crank within an opposed cylinder configuration so not the same bearings either. Plenty of torque in engines with the cubic inch size, and stroke length at low rpm.

I'm not looking for a C65 engine, I'm looking for an engine that has a ton of after market developers already and a format that makes it attractive for new vendors to want to get in the game. If it catches on and performs, then they may want to get their parts certified to appeal to the general aviation field but it's not worth the hassle until it's been proven in the experimental end of the spectrum.

Take a walk through the EAA Pioneer Airport hangers sometime and you will get an idea what size piston and stroke has been successful in the past to produce low rpm engines. At one time there were other engines besides Continental and Lycoming. Were not trying to reinvent the wheel here. Were not shooting for great fuel economy. We just want simple and dependable within a weight our airplanes can carry without robbing them of all their performance. Meet the basic goals and let the aftermarket vendors tweak it from there to improve it.

As far as overheating issues go, name an engine that has not run into this problem in some application or another. The 582 being water cooled even suffers from over heating issues. The C65 has heating issues too when heat issues are not addressed properly. The C65 is a good engine; just not a good fit for our small airplanes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted

Sounds like you have all the answers.  Build one and prove me wrong.

 

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now