Wider gear using stock legs.

[Browning 23]

Just a quick sketch of how I think I could make my stock gear wider. Maybe gain about 3 or 4 inches per side. Hopefully you can understand my sketch. Basically just open the gear up and put in stops to keep it open the that point  reweld the axles to make them level. With the big tires I will run I'm already gaining height. I dont think I need to lengthen the legs at all. Strengthen the seat truss and side rails and put bungies back on. Even thought about putting the bungies between the two triangles and not on the seat truss. 

[Browning 23]

Any thoughts. 

[Allen Sutphin 705]

My straight forward opinion is to add length to the bungee tube so it fits up tight to the bottom tube and add the width to the gear legs so the original angles stay the same for strength.  Dropping the bungee tube down would widen the gear but cause some other problems in the process. Your idea would most likely do what you want with less work but I can't say what a hard landing would do or the long term issues. If I was doing it your way, I'd do it and then spend a few hours in taxi test and a few crow hops before doing any carrier landings. A spare gear to play with would be a plus. Dig out the trig tables and you might find that to widen the gear 6" you are dropping the bungee tube down quite a bit.

[Browning 23]

I think getting a second set of gear to play with is a great idea. I will definantly be doing a lot of crow hops either way. I'm in the process of rethinking some of it and the things you touched on give me direction. Thank you. 

Edited 5 Feb 2019 by Browning

[Matthewtanner 44]

How come you wanna widen them? Is the airplane flying? I understand the need to tinker, i'm as guilty as anyone, but i'd try to stay away from projects that have alot of unknowns that'll keep your aircraft grounded. Having to use the rudder just a slightly bit more is worth more to me than all the down time in widening the gear just a bit, to reduce the workload just a tiny bit. Theoretically the experience you gain from flying will outweigh the downtime and effort involved in adding 6" to your gear width. Just food for thought.

Edited 5 Feb 2019 by Matthewtanner

[Allen Sutphin 705]

You could cut off the bungee bar, widen the gear to your desired width, and then reweld the bungee bar back to where it is parallel with the lower seat truss bar. you would lose a little height depending on how wide you want the wheel width. but the bungee arrangement would be the same. For me, 6" wider wheel span isn't going to be a major difference in preventing a ground loop. I am a rudder walker on final. By that I mean I start tapping the rudder back and forth a small amount on final. It gets your feet and head in the same game so when you touchdown your feet and head are already working together. Really helps after flying around for a while or returning from a trip where you've sat on your butt and not used your feet for anything but to scratch your ears.

[Browning 23]

I guess the only reason I'm thinking about it is because everyone seems to be doing it.  It seems a lot feel that it helps with control. But I hear you loud and clear, why tinker.  

[1avidflyer 1983]

Here are my thoughts.  If you can weld good enough to change the angel on the axel, I would say make up the whole new bush gear.  The seat truss is also a weak link in these airplanes, both Kitfox and Avid.  The wider the bungee gear is, the more leverage you put against the seat truss.  The wide bush gear also creates stresses on the fuselage in different ways though.  It can pull in on the gear attach points and buckle the fuselage there.  Good landings are the key, but probably none of us do that always, and then things can get bent to ruin your day.  If you have the bungee gear, at least you should infill the triangles of the seat truss as much as possible.  I've done it with .040" thick steel, but even plywood glued in will help.  The plywood was actually the factories' suggestion.  JImChuk

[Allen Sutphin 705]

Rough off field landings are hard on the whole airframe. Trent Palmer and the Flying Cowboys make it look easy and impressive but they don't tell how many times they have damaged the airframe. A light Avid/Fox and reasonably good landings isn't that hard on the gear.  Maybe everyone is a closet bush pilot but that can get expensive real quick. I like to watch the video's too, but also understand what else is involved in that type of flying.  #1 is a pocket full of money. A few hundred dollars spent with a good tail dragger instructor might be a better investment. A safer one at least.

[Browning 23]

Living where I live a majority of my flying will be in fields dirt roads and such. But I dont have deep pockets. I think I'm going to brace up good and go with some soft tires and have at it. Definantly want to spend some time with a good tail wheel trainer. I want it to be a kitfox guy. 

[FredStork 453]

Here are my thoughts.  If you can weld good enough to change the angel on the axel, I would say make up the whole new bush gear.  The seat truss is also a weak link in these airplanes, both Kitfox and Avid.  The wider the bungee gear is, the more leverage you put against the seat truss.  The wide bush gear also creates stresses on the fuselage in different ways though.  It can pull in on the gear attach points and buckle the fuselage there.  Good landings are the key, but probably none of us do that always, and then things can get bent to ruin your day.  If you have the bungee gear, at least you should infill the triangles of the seat truss as much as possible.  I've done it with .040" thick steel, but even plywood glued in will help.  The plywood was actually the factories' suggestion.  JImChuk

...and cut that highly destructive "safety wire" that limit the gear deflection. The wire will destroy even a reinforced seat truss. Replace it with a stiff horizontal bungee between the gear legs: 

[Browning 23]

Here are my thoughts.  If you can weld good enough to change the angel on the axel, I would say make up the whole new bush gear.  The seat truss is also a weak link in these airplanes, both Kitfox and Avid.  The wider the bungee gear is, the more leverage you put against the seat truss.  The wide bush gear also creates stresses on the fuselage in different ways though.  It can pull in on the gear attach points and buckle the fuselage there.  Good landings are the key, but probably none of us do that always, and then things can get bent to ruin your day.  If you have the bungee gear, at least you should infill the triangles of the seat truss as much as possible.  I've done it with .040" thick steel, but even plywood glued in will help.  The plywood was actually the factories' suggestion.  JImChuk

...and cut that highly destructive "safety wire" that limit the gear deflection. The wire will destroy even a reinforced seat truss. Replace it with a stiff horizontal bungee between the gear legs: 

I'm glad to hear you say that because I've been thinking about exactly that. 

[Allen Sutphin 705]

Living where I live a majority of my flying will be in fields dirt roads and such. But I dont have deep pockets. I think I'm going to brace up good and go with some soft tires and have at it. Definantly want to spend some time with a good tail wheel trainer. I want it to be a kitfox guy. 

The type of flying you describe shouldn't be that dangerous to the standard gear with proper landing attitudes.  You can destroy a gear on pavement with improper landings. I like the idea of getting rid of the safety cable and using a cross bungee.  Spending time refining one's skill is never wasted. To me, a young whippersnapper with the ink still wet on his instructor's license is not a tail dragger instructor. I want my instructor to look like he's been there and done that, and has the grey hairs to prove it. You can usually tell after talking to him (or her) after 5 minutes.  You know, one who can walk the walk and talk the talk.

[little rocket 16]

Here are my thoughts.  If you can weld good enough to change the angel on the axel, I would say make up the whole new bush gear.  The seat truss is also a weak link in these airplanes, both Kitfox and Avid.  The wider the bungee gear is, the more leverage you put against the seat truss.  The wide bush gear also creates stresses on the fuselage in different ways though.  It can pull in on the gear attach points and buckle the fuselage there.  Good landings are the key, but probably none of us do that always, and then things can get bent to ruin your day.  If you have the bungee gear, at least you should infill the triangles of the seat truss as much as possible.  I've done it with .040" thick steel, but even plywood glued in will help.  The plywood was actually the factories' suggestion.  JImChuk

...and cut that highly destructive "safety wire" that limit the gear deflection. The wire will destroy even a reinforced seat truss. Replace it with a stiff horizontal bungee between the gear legs: 

I'm glad to hear you say that because I've been thinking about exactly that. 

Just wonder if you removed the [truss bungee] to see if the Safety bungee you are using will hold the weight of your plane and at least keep the prop from hitting the ground??

[Turbo 162]

Nylon braid has good stretch and good strength, with strength likely way better than bungee.  I have tested the Airfcraft Spruce 3/8" bungee to over 100 lbs and double original length,  with no failure, but did not have the equipment to take it further.  Transverse load path thru the fuselage tubing, seat truss must be a concern with this new idea.  One would want to look at loads vs column buckling possibility on the squeezed seat truss structure.  Having suffered the indignity of a cable-caused seat truss crimp failure, I heartily agree with the idea of omitting the damn things.  I have quality 1/2" plywood ziptied in the critical triangles.

[1avidflyer 1983]

Those that have, and those that will:  buckled an unreinforced seat truss.....  (no need to see a show of hands)   JImChuk

[Allen Sutphin 705]

At this stage I don't want to do any welding on the seat structure. Its painted, covered and everything installed. Screwing up a landing will definitely bend something. Might look of optional methods of reinforcing the structure without welding. Better plan is to do away with the safety cable and go with a different device. I don't think the bungees themselves would bend the seat structure. A hard enough landing to bend the structure is called a crash landing in my world. I have seen bungees get weak, elongate, and lose their tension, but never seen any break completely. The safety cable is there as a last ditch effort to save your backside. If one does routine carrier landings, replace the bungees yearly or every two years for around $40 or so. Another price of bush flying. And those guy can generally land an airplane. But then some can't seem to find the ground in a tricycle gear. Go figure!

[Turbo 162]

The original bungees included with the kit for my bird 26 years ago tested out 1/3 as stiff as the new ones from Acft Spruce!  Anybody who has original bungees should swap them out for new!  Yeah, they reached max stretch at about 30-35 lbs as opposed to over 100 lbs for the new ones!  Hard to believe, huh!  That sub-par stiffness is what you'd get with the hardware-store variety bungees.  Make no mistake! 

OTOH, my plywood truss-savers probably should be vertical-grain plank.  In my case this is not too critical as I have omitted the "safety cables" as C5 suggested long ago.  Nylon webbing would seem a viable alternative to those cables, but isn't that what the bungee sheaths are in essence anyway?

[FredStork 453]

Here are my thoughts.  If you can weld good enough to change the angel on the axel, I would say make up the whole new bush gear.  The seat truss is also a weak link in these airplanes, both Kitfox and Avid.  The wider the bungee gear is, the more leverage you put against the seat truss.  The wide bush gear also creates stresses on the fuselage in different ways though.  It can pull in on the gear attach points and buckle the fuselage there.  Good landings are the key, but probably none of us do that always, and then things can get bent to ruin your day.  If you have the bungee gear, at least you should infill the triangles of the seat truss as much as possible.  I've done it with .040" thick steel, but even plywood glued in will help.  The plywood was actually the factories' suggestion.  JImChuk

...and cut that highly destructive "safety wire" that limit the gear deflection. The wire will destroy even a reinforced seat truss. Replace it with a stiff horizontal bungee between the gear legs: 

I'm glad to hear you say that because I've been thinking about exactly that. 

Just wonder if you removed the [truss bungee] to see if the Safety bungee you are using will hold the weight of your plane and at least keep the prop from hitting the ground??

No, I have not. While it could be interesting it is an unlikely scenario, a bungee braking at landing. Ever heatd about a bungee breaking (bungees cut by the safety wire when the wire loop end un on top of the bungee not counted)? I follow the recommendation to replace the bungees every 5 years. The horisontal bungee is not the new safety wire but ntended to work together with the normal bungee, adding increasing resistance as the gear extends without providing a hard stop.

[Allen Sutphin 705]

Anybody know where one can get the swages for the bungees?

[ChrisBolkan 130]

I do not have the swages or the tool, but have successfully built bungy ends with safety wire and heat shrink over the top. Way less bulky and strong as hell. Looks good too.

There are a few threads on here that show how to do it if you can find them.

Edited 8 Feb 2019 by Chris Bolkan

[Allen Sutphin 705]

I don't know if I trust safety wire or not. One has to be careful of not cutting the bungee. I think I'll make my own swages out of 4130 tubing. I've done it before and it passed the strength test of the bungee breaking before the swage let go. 

[1avidflyer 1983]

I always use the safety wire approach to tie a loop in the bungees, and have never had a problem with it.  I use long enough wire to do a double wrap, pull tight and twist one or two times to lock the wire, then double wrap again with same wire, and twist it a bunch.  Fold the tail over, and wrap with electrical tape.   Works for me.  JImChuk

[Allen Sutphin 705]

I have some Dacron bowstring material I use to make custom strings with, that could also work. would take a few turns more than safety wire but is super strong. I think my home grown swages will work good. I have some excess bungee to do a test with. When I get them made and tested to my approval, I'll post a couple pictures.

[Turbo 162]

Y'all are gonna think I'm ideologically mistaken perhaps, but I bound my bungee end loops with bailing wire!  (OMG! Not aircraft grade!)  The real key to it not slipping is to pre-stretch the area to be wrapped to something close to maximum stretch, since the bungee crossectional area gets smaller as the bungee is stretched.  If that bungee ever gets stretched beyond the tension at which it was wrapped, you risk it slipping and the end loop shrinking. That effectively adds to the bungee's effective length, but only a teensy bit.  The bungee end leg is, of course, the less likely to slip compared to the other leg in the binding.  Oh yeah, and my final wrap was with electrical tape.  Didn't like applying heat there for the shrink tube.  It's holding very well.

Edited 11 Feb 2019 by Turbo