WTB: Avid or Kitfox Horizontal Stabilizer/Elevator & Stock Gear

[Logan 0]

We recently acquired an Avid B Model. There is an uncomfortable amount of corrosion on the tubes of the horizontal stabilizer and elevator, presumably because drain holes were never installed in the fabric--the rest of the tubes look perfect. We're looking for a replacement set. What tail feathers will fit on a B model? Up to the Kitfox 4/Avid 4? Does anyone have anything for sale or know where to find a set?

We could also use a set of stock gear legs for the B Model as we're pretty sure ours are mismatched--one toes in a lot more than the other and one is slightly shorter. Anyone have any kicking around?

Thanks in advance for the help!

[1avidflyer 1983]

I have a horizontal stabilizer for an A model and a C model.  I think they are both the same size.  MK IV is probably bigger, but I'm just guessing on that.  (I know the elevator is bigger on the 4.  I don't have an elevator though.  Both of mine are covered, A model one has white aerothane paint, the C  is fabric, and finish tapes.  No gear legs for sale either.  How much different in length are the gear if you measure the front tube, top to bottom on each?  If you  have one MK IV gear, I might be able to match you up with one of those.  Not sure if Kitfox el and hor. stab are interchangeable.  I'm guessing they aren't.   JImChuk

[Buckchop 479]

Dont know if this helps, but when i started the build on my model one kitfox, i bought an A model Avid, and tried to use the horizontal on the kitfox and it would fit but every hinge location would have to b moved to lineup with eachother. 

[Logan 0]

I have a horizontal stabilizer for an A model and a C model.  I think they are both the same size.  MK IV is probably bigger, but I'm just guessing on that.  (I know the elevator is bigger on the 4.  I don't have an elevator though.  Both of mine are covered, A model one has white aerothane paint, the C  is fabric, and finish tapes.  No gear legs for sale either.  How much different in length are the gear if you measure the front tube, top to bottom on each?  If you  have one MK IV gear, I might be able to match you up with one of those.  Not sure if Kitfox el and hor. stab are interchangeable.  I'm guessing they aren't.   JImChuk

Thank you! This helps a bunch! I'll probably contact you directly to talk about those stabilizers. I wouldn't be afraid of finding the bigger Mk IV stab if it mounts the same way and has the same braces. As for the gear legs, the one is 22" and the other 21 1/2". The previous owner mentioned that the one gear leg is from a Kitfox, but I didn't think anything of it at the time. According to the logs it is the longer one. The bird was on a trailer when we bought it and I didn't bother to unfold the wings. Getting it to the hangar and unfolding the wings showed us that the one wing sits distinctly low--out came the measure tape. The shorter of the two is the one that toes in a ridiculous amount, but nothing looks bent at all. How much should they toe in on a stock Avid? My Citabria has just a very slight toe in--not even noticeable without measuring. 

Dont know if this helps, but when i started the build on my model one kitfox, i bought an A model Avid, and tried to use the horizontal on the kitfox and it would fit but every hinge location would have to b moved to lineup with eachother. 

Thanks Bucky! So my understanding from your experience is that if we get a matching elevator and stabilizer from an early Kitfox, it would work. Is that correct?

[1avidflyer 1983]

Maybe someone made up a gear leg them self.  I'll do some measureing on the Kitfox 4 and Avid MK IV legs today. Which side is the 22" long gear leg?  That sounds like the MK  IV gear leg, but I should measure before I say to much.  If you want to call me you can.  218 seven five zero 38 five one.  JImChuk

PS.  I think toe in should be 0 or maybe 1/8" toed out.  Having the toe in off will make it real squirelly, especially on pavement

Edited 1 Aug 2019 by 1avidflyer

[Yamma-Fox 403]

Id sell my complete KF5 bungee type landing gear, brakes and new tires.

I think it measures the same as the KF4?

Just pulled it off for float install and I'll go with a full gear and tire upgrade if I switch it back.

[1avidflyer 1983]

Not wanting  to mess with your sale, but I think the Kitfox 5 gear is wider.  At any rate, it's a good idea to be sure before things get shipped.   JImChuk

[Buckchop 479]

I think Jim is right that the KF5 gear is wider.

Logan, yes its me u been textin about gear and tail feathers. And i was sayin that i tried Avid tail feathers on a Kitfox and it Did not work, hindges dont lineup, ud have to cut them off and reweld them backon in my experience.  And the 22” long gear leg is same as all the stock Kitfox gear i have. Hope this helps  hahahaaaa

 

Edited 2 Aug 2019 by Buckchop

[1avidflyer 1983]

I did some measuring this evening, and found that the Avid and Kitfox tube that the bungee wraps around measures 16" from the end of that tube to the forward mounting hole of the landing gear.  Also from that hole down  to the center of the axel, the Kitfox 4 measures 22" and the Avid MK IV measures 25"  JImChuk

[whizzers 35]

I have had a number of Avids and Kitfox parts. Used some to build a "FRankenplane" Something to consider.

1. The Kitfox Horiz stab I had was about 1 1/2" shorter front to back than the Avid equivalent You would have to make mounting brackets. Spanwise they were equal. Also, you would have to make "V" struts, as neither model would line up.

2. On the earlier Avids, the Leading edge of the Vertical Stab is offset to the right about a  inch. This puts the front mounting tab on the Horiz stab about an inch to the right of center, so to use an "A" or  "B" model stab on a "C" or later fuse, you have to move the front mounting tab or the stab will be skewed.

3. Using a Kitfox Horiz stab with an Avid Elevator or vice-versa would be problematic. You would have to move hinges on something.

   Same with rudders

4. The whole gear assembly was compatible, but you can't use half of one and half of the other together. The top crossmember of the Avid gear where the bungees go  was about an inch longer than the Kitfox gear.

5. Doors don't fit, neither does the turtle deck. Kitfox round cowl will fit an Avid if you use KF engine mounts and turn the engine upright. You have to do some welding.  Bad idea! Looks neat but the forward visibility on the ground sucks. Hard to land.

[Logan 0]

Id sell my complete KF5 bungee type landing gear, brakes and new tires.

I think it measures the same as the KF4?

Just pulled it off for float install and I'll go with a full gear and tire upgrade if I switch it back.

I would have definitely been interested, but from my research I found that only up to the KF4 would fit on the B model. Thanks for the offer though!

Logan, yes its me u been textin about gear and tail feathers. And i was sayin that i tried Avid tail feathers on a Kitfox and it Did not work, hindges dont lineup, ud have to cut them off and reweld them backon in my experience.  And the 22” long gear leg is same as all the stock Kitfox gear i have. Hope this helps  hahahaaaa

Yeah, we're definitely interested in your KF4 gear legs Bucky. Let me know when you have them off and we'll see where we are with the project at that point.

I did some measuring this evening, and found that the Avid and Kitfox tube that the bungee wraps around measures 16" from the end of that tube to the forward mounting hole of the landing gear.  Also from that hole down  to the center of the axel, the Kitfox 4 measures 22" and the Avid MK IV measures 25"  JImChuk

Thanks for measuring this for us! It makes sense that the slightly longer leg is from a Kitfox as I noticed now that the weld on the lug for the old mechanical brakes was clearly added by someone who didn't know how to weld. I'm definitely going to call you when I find time when it isn't crazy late in the evening out your way. Thank you!

I have had a number of Avids and Kitfox parts. Used some to build a "FRankenplane" Something to consider.

1. The Kitfox Horiz stab I had was about 1 1/2" shorter front to back than the Avid equivalent You would have to make mounting brackets. Spanwise they were equal. Also, you would have to make "V" struts, as neither model would line up.

2. On the earlier Avids, the Leading edge of the Vertical Stab is offset to the right about a  inch. This puts the front mounting tab on the Horiz stab about an inch to the right of center, so to use an "A" or  "B" model stab on a "C" or later fuse, you have to move the front mounting tab or the stab will be skewed.

3. Using a Kitfox Horiz stab with an Avid Elevator or vice-versa would be problematic. You would have to move hinges on something.

   Same with rudders

4. The whole gear assembly was compatible, but you can't use half of one and half of the other together. The top crossmember of the Avid gear where the bungees go  was about an inch longer than the Kitfox gear.

5. Doors don't fit, neither does the turtle deck. Kitfox round cowl will fit an Avid if you use KF engine mounts and turn the engine upright. You have to do some welding.  Bad idea! Looks neat but the forward visibility on the ground sucks. Hard to land.

It sounds like I should just stick with sourcing an Avid horizontal stab and elevator! Thanks so much for all your help! I feel like we need a comprehensive guide of what was changed as the models progressed--anybody know of something someone has compiled? Maybe that would be a good forum project?

I haven't looked closely enough at our fuselage to see if the vertical stab is offset, but looking in the build manual that came with it it sure looks like it is offset--to the left though. That doesn't make any sense to me unless the prop was to turn counterclockwise looking from the cockpit. I'll have to look at the bird closely the next time I'm in the hangar.

[1avidflyer 1983]

The two stroke Rotax with a gearbox turns to the left in tractor configuration, so looking from the cockpit it would be counterclockwise.  Just the opposite of a Continental or Lycoming.  JImChuk

PS  answered your PM

Edited 4 Aug 2019 by 1avidflyer

[Buckchop 479]

Logan, the silver covered KF 4 gearlegs sold to Dale in canada, the ones i have i "may" sell r the bluefox off my KF model 1,  but they the same measurements, My new extended landing gear is shippin out on Monday, so id guess by end of the following week id have a decision made. 

[Logan 0]

The two stroke Rotax with a gearbox turns to the left in tractor configuration, so looking from the cockpit it would be counterclockwise.  Just the opposite of a Continental or Lycoming.  JImChuk

PS  answered your PM

That explains a lot! I didn't even notice the different rotation when we started it on the ground before buying.

Logan, the silver covered KF 4 gearlegs sold to Dale in canada, the ones i have i "may" sell r the bluefox off my KF model 1,  but they the same measurements, My new extended landing gear is shippin out on Monday, so id guess by end of the following week id have a decision made. 

Sounds like a plan! Let me know when you make your decision! Thanks Bucky!

[Buckchop 479]

Hey just thinking here hope someone will set it straight,

But i think that Kitfox and Avid have different axel center locations from the front of the wing. Think Avid is straight down from wing leadin edge, and Kitfox is like 1 7/8” forward of wing leading edge?

 That will messup ur CG if it ends up different than what u have now. Mayb someone thats knows them better can help us out with that info. 

[1avidflyer 1983]

I think you are half right Bucky,  except it's the Avid wheels that are further forward.  Also when I tried to put Avid gear on a Kitfox, the bungees location on the gear didn't line up with the existing holes in the belly.  I think the 1/2" brace on the Avid goes further in then the Kitfox.   That can be made to work though if you want to make bigger holes in the fabric.  JImChuk

 

PS  horizontal stabilizer is same size from A model to Mk IV on the Avids.  I measured today.  Not the same with the elevator though.  

Edited 6 Aug 2019 by 1avidflyer

[whizzers 35]

Avid gear axle is 1 7/8 ahead of the top forward gear mount. Changing this will not affect the C.G. as that is a flight function. (The weight will change, but so will the arm) The CG will remain the same. What may change is the point/speed at which the tail comes up on take off, or comes down on wheel landings.  A further aft axle means the tail comes up sooner. (More weight on the mains, less on the tail). I have been building "tall" cabane style main gear for the Avids for several years and have the dimensions down pretty good.

Stabs are the same except that the front mounting tab on the earlier Avids is off- center because of the rudder offset. Avid changed that when guys started putting Right-turning engines on. I ran into that when I tried to put a "B" model tail on a "C" model fuselage.

[Buckchop 479]

Right on whizzer thanks for helping out, and u r correct i remember now thats what the builder of my extended gear had said also. 

[Logan 0]

Hey just thinking here hope someone will set it straight,

But i think that Kitfox and Avid have different axel center locations from the front of the wing. Think Avid is straight down from wing leadin edge, and Kitfox is like 1 7/8” forward of wing leading edge?

 That will messup ur CG if it ends up different than what u have now. Mayb someone thats knows them better can help us out with that info. 

Avid gear axle is 1 7/8 ahead of the top forward gear mount. Changing this will not affect the C.G. as that is a flight function. (The weight will change, but so will the arm) The CG will remain the same. What may change is the point/speed at which the tail comes up on take off, or comes down on wheel landings.  A further aft axle means the tail comes up sooner. (More weight on the mains, less on the tail). I have been building "tall" cabane style main gear for the Avids for several years and have the dimensions down pretty good.

Stabs are the same except that the front mounting tab on the earlier Avids is off- center because of the rudder offset. Avid changed that when guys started putting Right-turning engines on. I ran into that when I tried to put a "B" model tail on a "C" model fuselage.

Thanks for all the help! If we have mismatched gear legs, this is probably what we are noticing is all wonky.

[1avidflyer 1983]

 

Stabs are the same except that the front mounting tab on the earlier Avids is off- center because of the rudder offset. Avid changed that when guys started putting Right-turning engines on. I ran into that when I tried to put a "B" model tail on a "C" model fuselage.

Good catch Bob!  I'll have to compare the two spare stabilizers I have, (A and C) to check closer for differences.  I just laid one on top of the other and saw they were the same size.  Updates to follow later today.  JImChuk

PS  thought I posted this a few hours ago, but anyway, and update.  The A model and C model are the same for the front mounting tab.  I'll check my MK IV later today, but I'm thinking that is the model where Avid put the verticle stabilizer in the center.  

[wypaul 448]

Logan I have right gear leg for a MK IV IFyour left leg happens to be from a MK IV, they have the step.

[Logan 0]

Logan I have right gear leg for a MK IV IFyour left leg happens to be from a MK IV, they have the step.

With the help of everyone here, I know it doesn't have the Mk IV gear. Thanks for your offer though! You've all been hugely helpful!