447 or 503 rotax comeback

[Zero Gravity Propulsion 0]

Hey guys,

Thank you for taking the time to read this post.

Here is the question. "IF" there was a 447 or 503 style engine avail with all the upgrades, Ceramic coated cylinders, Plastic covers to reduce weight, Hybrid composite materials to lighten components, same mounting points, same provision 8, same exhaust system, upgraded ignition system, and B, C, and E style gear boxes... how many people would be interested?

We are considering to make a 447 or 503 style engine again but first would like to poll the community and see if it is worth the investment.

We are also looking for people who have extensive repair knowledge of this engine so we can make the necessary improvements that are needed for aircraft use. 

We are also currently working on an Air cooled 63hp, 570cc engine with provision 8 and other mounting points to accept all ROTAX or SPG3 or 4 gear boxes.

 

 

[akflyer 1427]

I think the 63 hp could be promising.  503 specs and hp is pretty much minimum for our birds.  As with any "new" engine only after its been well tested and proven will most people hang one on their bird.

[NorthIdahoAvidflyer 374]

I would have to agree with akflyer. A larger hp version of these engine would fit our size planes better. My favorite engine to date was the Zenoah G50 opposed cylinder 2 stroke engine. It was a great running engine, quite and put out the same hp at lower RPM's then the 447. I was sad to see this engine go out of production. Another engine that was interesting was the Pegasus half 0-200 4 cycle.  The RX-1 and Apex seem to be catching on.

We look forward to see what you come up with. We need some new blood in the light engine market. 

[Allen Sutphin 705]

It could very well be a winner! But, like was said, only after it was tested and proved viable. Then price has a stake in the game. And then, there would be other kit companies that would be interested, as well. Kolb, CGS, QCU, among others.

[Cloud Dancer 69]

The 447 and 503 were great for ultralights but not much else. Judging from what I have seen at the ultralight end of the Oshkosh airshow the last 3 or 4 years, ultralights are not being developed. The market it too small to support their sales. Most of the manufacturers moved over to "light sport" development where they can grow. Part 103 weight limits and fuel limits regulated ultralights to a premature death.

I now see the "light sport" field to be in the same trouble as the "ultralight" field was in it's heyday. Too many vendors compared to the number of dollars being spent within the industry. The economy just does not allow enough extra cash for expensive toys for most of America. At least with snowmobiles and boats your not spending as much on a license as your toy. A simple drivers license system for "light sport" would help get more buyers into the market and in turn support the vendors.

Until things change a "new" 447 or 503 will be of use as a replacement engine on an old ultralight or a new engine on a new ultralight, both uses are shrinking more each day.

[Allen Sutphin 705]

I think what would help the sport as much as anything would be affordable aircraft that John Q Public could afford.  And yet nobody wants to pay 20K for an older Avid or Fox when a new ultralight kit will run you 20K on average or more. We won't even get into LSA prices. Its a slowly dying hobby.

[Zero Gravity Propulsion 0]

Great feedback....keep it coming.

What about gear boxes? Is there a need for less expensive ones. Not cheap quality just cheaper price.

[Allen Sutphin 705]

I've used both gearboxes and belt drives and they both have their merits. My new Hirth G-50 gearbox was $2200 by itself. That's a little pricy. So a new Hirth 3202 engine/gearbox is around $9K if one buys it new. Getting up close to 4 stroke prices. A solid engine/gearbox combo for around 5K-6K would be a good deal. Doubtful that one could be made at that price on a small production scale. Like someone said, too many suppliers wanting a  piece of the pie.

[Zero Gravity Propulsion 0]

Actually that price range is very doable. Our goal is to bring the prices down so people can start to get back into the Ultralight sport again and airplane manufacturers can sell kits for a reasonable price.

 

[Allen Sutphin 705]

If you can accomplish that then you have done something.  It could very well be done as long as one doesn't get too greedy. But hats off to you for even giving it a try. Hope you succeed because we need a solid 60-65 hp engine that doesn't weigh a lot and is reliable. The 582 will eventually go away, Hirth is pricing itself above most people's means, so we are left with slim pickings. A lot of garage experimenters are working on Yamaha, Can-AM, BMW, and others but weight seems to be a issue. I can't see most kit manufactures dropping the price on their kits, though.  A new two stroke will have some issues with the EPA and the green people, so be prepared. 

[Cloud Dancer 69]

Actually that price range is very doable. Our goal is to bring the prices down so people can start to get back into the Ultralight sport again and airplane manufacturers can sell kits for a reasonable price.

 

Another part of the problem with the kit prices is the fact that the price of metals has seen a steady climb upwards for several years. To make matters worse, the tariffs imposed by Trump on imported metals will drive the price up even more. I don't see any kit manufacturers getting rich. Many of them barely get by. An affordable ultralight might mean going back to wood and fabric.

[Good old number 29 158]

I think it's a great idea. I'd be the first to buy one. A new Polaris Indy snowmachine with a 544 cc fan cooled 55 horsepower engine retails for $5,499. That's a whole snowmachine, not just the engine and gearbox. I think it's reasonable to expect that we could produce and sell an engine and gearbox for about half that amount. I've been kicking around the idea of putting a newer snowmachine engine in my plane, at some point. After all, that's what these Rotax engines were, to start with. If I could get a purpose built engine and gear reduction for the same price, I'd be happy to do it, and not throw away half a snowmachine when I was done.

[Good old number 29 158]

And, may I add, yes to everything you said. Same, same. All the good stuff, ignition, and so on. Yes. Yes, please.