Release of liability??

[NorthIdahoAvidflyer 374]

When you guys have bought or sold an Experimental have you signed or had the buyer sign a form to release of liability?  Is there any such pre-made form out there for this?

[1avidflyer 1983]

I have, I'm not sure if it would hold up in court, but at least it's something.  Think I got it from the EAA.   Jut googled it and found that one I've used was from USUA.  See the link.  JImChuk

https://www.usua.org/PDF/SalesAgreement.pdf
 

 

[NorthIdahoAvidflyer 374]

Thank you. That was exactly what I was looking for. You are right. At least its something. 

[Allen Sutphin 705]

I took the EAA one to my lawyer to look over. They said it was iron clad and would hold up in any court in the USA. Will try to load it here so it can be printed.

Liability Release.rtf

Edited 11 Sep 2019 by Allen Sutphin

[NorthIdahoAvidflyer 374]

Thank you Allen. Much appreciated.

[Allen Sutphin 705]

Well, its good in every state in the USA, and maybe even California.

[Jaws136 4]

Well, its good in every state in the USA, and maybe even California.

lol. I thought only AK and HI werent part of the US!

[nlappos 413]

I provided the EAA form to the guy who sold me his Avid, it is a fine form, but you really don't need it. The EAA says that nobody ever won a suit against anybody else when flying an experimental aircraft. Juries simply laugh when the defense attorney reads the definition of Experimental, and when they see the large placard on the dashboard. 

It is a shame when folks strip the airworthiness cert from their aircraft and de-register it out of fear of being sued.

[Allen Sutphin 705]

Whether one needs it or not isn't the issue. Its just added insurance and if a lawyer has the signed form in front of him, 99% of the time it ends right there. No going to court, no legal fees, and no hassle. Its true nobody has won in court but it cost a bunch just to go to court. If a free form keeps it from even getting that far, then its worth a lot. Just like flying, always put the odds in your favor and lessen your exposure to risk as much as possible.

[nlappos 413]

You're right Allen, but in fact a plaintiff's lawyer won't even take the case because he only makes money on the win, and pays all costs up front betting on the win.  To line up experts and pay himself for all the prep is simply not worth it.  

[Allen Sutphin 705]

Must be different lawyers in the west. Here our lawyers are like a pack of hungry wolves. They  can smell someone's  money a mile away.  They usually start for a fixed fee and then a BIG percentage of the win. Nobody wins in the end except the lawyers. If what you say is correct, and I'll say it could be, a simple form just adds to the difficulty of them getting a win. Bottom line is for me anyway, is not risking everything I worked for all my life because of not having a release signed which most buyers don't have a problem with. If they did have a problem with it, then I'd raise an eyebrow about selling to them. I, in recent years, won't sell to a first time buyer. Even if he is at fault, I'd still feel bad. You, as a E/AB pilot, know all the little things that can go sideways when flying.  Maybe more than the average rec pilot. Seems the more experienced we get, the more cautious we become.

Edited 12 Sep 2019 by Allen Sutphin

[1avidflyer 1983]

I wonder if maybe the spouse and children should also sign the liability release.....  In the worst case situation, they may be the ones to sue.  WHERE DOES IT ALL END!!!!!  JImChuk

[Allen Sutphin 705]

In most states (California excluded) the parents can sign away the rights of their children, adult or not. That was the main question I had for my lawyer and the reason I went to them with the release. And the liability release covers the spouse, children and heirs. If one is really concerned about this, most lawyers will charge $25 or so to go over it and add anything that pertains to their state.  Liability suits usually address the "stream of commerce" clause. Meaning the aircraft was not produced to be in the standard retail market such as a auto, ATV, etc. The release also covers that by stating it is a amateur built and experimental in nature. Actually the EAA legal team drew up this release to cover all the bases. So the release is pretty much accepted across the USA and California. Another big point is that once it leaves  your hands, you have no control of how its operated, maintained, or put to use. I learned that in a class by the FAA on A&P's doing conditional inspections on E/AB aircraft. I certify that it is safe at the time I inspected it. Not after the owner changes settings on the carbs, replaces some item, or whatever he does to it. He might replace the wing bolts with ones from Honest Abe's hardware store or use this new super gas additive that increases horsepower. No offense to anybody but, there are some really misinformed (idiot) owners out there that want someone else to answer for their screw-ups. Most are sensible enough to find out all they can about owning a Avid/fox or any other aircraft and take care of it accordingly.

[109jb 181]

Hi there. I'm new to the forum having just bought a Kitfox IV. I also have a Sonerai IIL that I built and here is how I look at it.

I am listed as the manufacturer of my Sonerai. Contrary to what the pdf liability statement Allen sent out, that NEVER changes. It is in the permanent FAA records of the airplane. That alone makes this particular liability waiver suspect enough that I would not use it.

The liability statement covers (maybe) the person who signs it but probably nobody else. In reality it probably doesn't even cover that. See the EAA article linked later.

I also don't buy the whole "In most states (California excluded) the parents can sign away the rights of their children, adult or not."  I'm 54 year old and I really doubt that any court would think my 79 year old father can sign away my rights. 

Certainly if Bob buys my airplane I can have Bob sign the waiver, But being a 2 place airplane, if Bob gives Sam a ride and crashes, The liability won't help one bit against Sam. Or if Bob crashes into a schoolyard full of children it won't help there either.

The EAA may have put out that one posted earlier but it isn't the one I am familiar with. I am familiar with the one I am attaching and will say even this one is only at best a deterrent.  Iron clad is absolutely not the case here and here is EAA's position on it which is also mine.

https://www.eaa.org/eaa/aircraft-building/building-your-aircraft/next-steps-after-your-airplane-is-built/selling-and-buying-articles/part-3-waiver-and-releases-buying-and-selling-a-homebuilt

As far as "The EAA says that nobody ever won a suit against anybody else when flying an experimental aircraft.", look up the John Denver case.  Everyone and his brother was sued on that one. Although I have never seen anything saying the builder of John Denver's airplane had to pay out, Aircraft Spruce and others did, and I'm sure the builder at least had legal defense fees.

For my Sonerai which I am listed as the manufacturer will be mine until I die. You would think that my liability ends there, but my estate could then be liable. For my Sonerai, that is worth maybe $10k if that, it isn't worth it. I would cut it up and sell it for scrap or part it out before accepting the liability of selling it regardless of what the chances of being sued are.

Bottom line is if you are going to sell your homebuilt airplane it doesn't hurt to have the buyer sign a waiver, butit is at best only a deterent.

Experimental Amateur-Built Aircraft Purchase and Sale Agreement.pdf

[Allen Sutphin 705]

Do as you wish. Everybody has the right to do as they please with their aircraft.  Me, I think I'll have another cup of coffee. And you misunderstand what was said. You father can eliminate your right to sue if he was hurt in the aircraft he bought and signed the waiver on. That doesn't apply to any other legal matter.

Edited 12 Sep 2019 by Allen Sutphin

[dholly 718]

Personally, I'd rather try to head trouble off before the pass. I provide and require a liability release when selling each of my unstarted or partially completed kits, finished but not flying and of course registered, flying EAB aircraft. I took the EAA recommended wording to my corporate counsel who in turn consulted with an aviation liability attorney friend of his.

The result was a state specific purchase/sale agreement about 3x more wordy with a LOT of duplicity, affirmative response input (i.e. 'Buyer must initial here' on important para.) to proactively squash subsequent claims of ignorance or confusion, a multiple Witness requirement, yada, yada. Came with a cost but I'm convinced it would effectively stop 99% of potential legal fishing expeditions. Much cheaper than defending against low-life ambulance chasers hoping to scare up a quick settlement. Cheap tort reform, if you will.