Looking for some advice on a plane purchase

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Posted (edited)

So, I’m new to the forum and the flying world in general. I am just finishing up my private pilot’s license. As such, I am looking at purchasing a plane as there is no where near me to rent one to build hours. I would have to continue on to get an instrument rating etc. and keep flying with the school which is a bit hard on the pocket book and not as flexible as I would like. I have been looking at the Avids and Kitfoxes for awhile. They are well within my budget and are right in line with what I want to use a plane for. (I love NORTHIDAHOAVIDFLYERS Mk4 and may have to go take a closer look at it.) However, I have no flight time in one and am wondering what some of you with experience in these planes think about them as far as a starter plane for someone with minimal flight experience. Obviously they demand respect and attention as all planes do, I just don’t want to purchase something that is beyond my current experience level. You know the old saying, “experience is what you get when you were expecting something else” however, that experience 1500’agl (or on landing) can be a bit harsh. I don’t have a Tailwheel endorsement yet but that is on the list next. 

Thanks in advance for all your thoughts. 

Edited by Montana Madness
Poor proof- reading

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Posted

We have all been right where you're at in our flying career.  I personally don't feel a Avid or Fox is suitable for IFR conditions but can be done. An old Eastern captain once told me to buy a plane I like, that fits my needs, and learn to fly it well. So if you like challenging your self and skills, doing a little backwoods flying, and generally just enjoying the plane, I would say the Avid/Fox would be a good choice. I am a little biased because I've always liked the plane and what it can do without breaking the bank. Of course, flying it well is a lifelong process. Every time you think you've got it figured out, it will teach you something new. Its a never ending learning experience, as flying is. Welcome to the sky!

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Posted

Allen, 

 

Thanks for the reply, I wasn't very clear... I don't intend to use this plane for IFR conditions, but in order to use a plane at the flight school to continue to build hours I would have to stay enrolled in a flight curriculum and an IFR rating would be the next step. The flight school doesn't rent planes just to build hours. What I really want to do is fly locally, some backwoods, go do some fishing etc. I live in a great place if you want to be outdoors and I am fortunate enough that my family has enough land I can put in a private grass strip. As such an Avid or Fox seems to be just the ticket. I am finding that I can't help but smile every time I shut my phone off and climb into the cockpit...a brief stint of sanity in an insane world. 

Thanks again for the help. Joel

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Posted

Hi Joel

well i have almost no experience in an Avid/Fox since mine isn't completed yet, but i have about 400hrs of total flying time, all done in the same type, another taildragger (Jodel, french low-wing design) and i just recently sat in an Avid MK IV for the very first time and could take the controls while airborne for a wile. So i can tell you what the first our of flying it might feel like :)

flying the avid felt like when i was about 10hours into my ppl training.. the airplane is extremely light and agile and needs a lot of attention as far as the rudder goes. I'm not talking about landing, just about flying coordinated turns.

i assume you did your ppl on a classic airplane like a 172 or 152 or a PA28. Expect a steep learning curve for your first couple of flights until you are used to the light and direct controls and actively using your feet while flying, and if you go for a taildragger, especially during landing.

After that test fligtht i went ahead and bought the ufinished kit i am now working on, because one thing is for sure, after a couple of hours (with an instructor to save your ass and your airplane if needed), this will be an awesome airplane to have a ton of fun with and to do it all quite safely. It has a very low stall speed which opens up a ton of emergency landing possibilities in case something goes wrong in flight, it tells you very well what it's doing, it stalls quite gentle and is easy to recover and it is extremely primitive. There are no complex controls in any way to handle. Most of them don't even have a mixture, just rudder pedals, a stick, flaperons which on older models double as trim since Avids prior to the Mk IV don't have a trim by default, and the throttle. that's it.

maybe you can find some avid / kitfox pilot who will take you to the skies in one and let you fly a couple of turns so you can feel for yourself what it's like. if not here on the forum, maybe by getting in touch with the local EAA chapter in your area and asking around (that's how i did it) as you will probably join them anyway when you have your own :)

cheers

Pascal

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Posted

Allen, 

 

Thanks for the reply, I wasn't very clear... I don't intend to use this plane for IFR conditions, but in order to use a plane at the flight school to continue to build hours I would have to stay enrolled in a flight curriculum and an IFR rating would be the next step. The flight school doesn't rent planes just to build hours. What I really want to do is fly locally, some backwoods, go do some fishing etc. I live in a great place if you want to be outdoors and I am fortunate enough that my family has enough land I can put in a private grass strip. As such an Avid or Fox seems to be just the ticket. I am finding that I can't help but smile every time I shut my phone off and climb into the cockpit...a brief stint of sanity in an insane world. 

Thanks again for the help. Joel

Sounds like a Avid/Fox is the right one for you!  It still amazes me what some kit providers call a STOL aircraft. Anything less than 800-900' is getting in the STOL class.

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FWIW if I were a new pilot looking for his first plane, I'd go buy something like this:

https://www.barnstormers.com/ad_detail.php?id=1507175

Easy to find an instructor and insurance,  Nice docile tailwheel plane,  some STOL capabilities.  Keep it for 5 years and probably sell it for eveything you got in it.

Then buy that Avid /Fox and build it to exactly fit your needs.

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Posted

Or an Aeronca Champ with an 85, 90 or 100 horse Continental. I got my private ticket in a 1946 Champ with an 85 horse Continental. That was back in the 80s. Owned a Luscombe 8A, and a Cessna 140. Like the my Kitfox Model III the best. Have landed in places I would have never landed in with the other 2.

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Posted

I learned tailwheel in a Citabria. The Avid is short and the gear narrow so you better have some.... a lot of tail experience IMO.

 

I wonder how many will admit going around in an Avid? Me twice. Once was almost bad.

 

They make wider landing gear and a fuselage extension for a reason!!!

 

That said, I am fine with a short fuse and wider tundra gear!

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Posted

Then I guess all of us with the standard gear need to rip the gear off, trash it and spend from 1500-3000 for a new gear?  Seems that is what the general opinion is. I think I'd get rid of the Fox and go to a different machine altogether. Curious as to why Wilson and Denney designed such a dangerous machine to start with.  Probably a few thousand of those dangerous things out there flying. Then when we change to the wide gear, the other half says we will destroy the fuselage structure with that gear. No wonder newbies are confused when buying a used Avid/Fox. Nobody seems to agree on anything. GEEISH!

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There are vast differences in skill level and natural ability. The gentleman that did the welding when I installed bush gear on my bird is 85 has thousands of tailwheel hours and never had a ground loop. I managed mine during my first solo in a taildragger, dumped the plane on its nose. Consequently I'm a little gun shy and decided to stack the deck in my favor. Part of the game is evaluating your skill level vs what the plane requires.  If you're such a good pilot that you've never had an issue with the stock gear then you're too be commended, but you don't get to tell the rest of us it's not an issue. There are plenty of bent birds bearing witness to the fact that it has been an issue for a fair number of us. And there are plenty of bent birds with poorly designed bush gear as you mentioned, so unless you get the design right you still might have problems. 

Bottom line is it's not as simple as I think you're trying to make it out to be. 

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Posted (edited)

Yeah I learned the value of reciting "go around... go around EARLY" at short final on each landing after day 1 flying my KF2 where I found myself in the grass off the runway with some big sliding skid marks!

I coulda avoided that embarrassment had I powered up upon the first sign of squirrellyness.

Nevr looped anything since then but would have a few times if I wasn't trigger ready to add power and try it again.

Edited by Yamma-Fox
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Posted

There are vast differences in skill level and natural ability. The gentleman that did the welding when I installed bush gear on my bird is 85 has thousands of tailwheel hours and never had a ground loop. I managed mine during my first solo in a taildragger, dumped the plane on its nose. Consequently I'm a little gun shy and decided to stack the deck in my favor. Part of the game is evaluating your skill level vs what the plane requires.  If you're such a good pilot that you've never had an issue with the stock gear then you're too be commended, but you don't get to tell the rest of us it's not an issue. There are plenty of bent birds bearing witness to the fact that it has been an issue for a fair number of us. And there are plenty of bent birds with poorly designed bush gear as you mentioned, so unless you get the design right you still might have problems. 

Bottom line is it's not as simple as I think you're trying to make it out to be. 

Wasn't saying that I was that good that I didn't have issues with the standard gear. There is no argument that a wider gear is more stable and easier to handle, but some seem to insist that the standard gear is dangerous and should be replaced regardless. I've had the earth spin under me while I was moving along. But in hindsight all the issues really turned out to be of my doing and not the aircraft. There probably have been just as many ground loops in Super Cub's, 120's, 170's etc. and will probably be as long as there are tail wheel aircraft. Even pro's, the ones that I can't even carry their lunchbox, have ground loops now and then. So it does happen to all experience levels. Being cautious and having a ground loop in the back of your mind makes me pay more attention to speed and control on landing. I am guilty of wanting to relax as soon as all 3 wheels are on the ground and that's a big no-no. Nothing wrong with stacking the odds in your favor at all, even then you can't afford to quit controlling things till you stop. And it is that simple, if you have issues with the standard gear, replace it, its your airplane. But it doesn't necessarly mean ALL of the standard gears need replaced as we are led to think sometimes. And even the wider bush gear aircraft still have loops. When and if I have my first damaging ground loop, I might feel the same way you do, maybe worse.  So far in my previous flying, all that has been hurt is my pride, thankfully.

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Posted

In reality, one is free to use whatever gear they feel is necessary for their situation. The deciding factor for me is the cost and weight. If they were cheaper and didn't add weight, then I'd probably have one. Doesn't mean the original gear is defective, just the bush type gear sure looks good. With the added weights of some of the Avid/Foxes and the higher landing speeds required, the wide gear could be a big advantage in control. I think that a light Avid/Fox landing at 30-35 mph loses its inertia so quick that there is little time for a serious ground loop to do damage. Yes, it will still loop at 20-25 but usually all that is damaged is the pilot's ego unless its rougher than normal conditions. So I will shut up about different gears, different techniques, and different opinions as to what their Avid/Foxes are used for.  My apologies to anybody that thinks they need whatever for their plane for their use.

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Having gone through the search that you are undertaking, I offer a couple of tips:

Look for the empty weight and Max gross weight of any aircraft are considering. The difference between the two is useful load, and that is what you are buying.  It is surprising how little useful load there is in some early Avid and kit Fox models. The model designation is a bit flaky, because a homebuilt can be called anything the builder wants. Many B and C models are called Mark IVs by their sellers, but the rounded rudder and the max gross weight are dead giveaways.

There are lots of opinions on engines, but for my money the Rotax 582 is a terrific engine and gives you lots of performance and useful load. I swapped my 582 for a 670 because I needed the extra power up here in Utah at 6000 feet runway altitude.

If the seller does not have a good airworthiness certificate and registration, and a nice set of log books, be very wary. Some flaky sellers pull the airworthiness certificate and registration because they're afraid of liability, but for you to rebuild the airworthiness declaration is a really tough thing. You have to convince the FAA of every part on aircraft being airworthy. In my opinion if the seller has pulled the airworthiness certificate, run away.

Concentrate on the Mark IV Avid Flyer, those with a D in the serial number. Many of the Mark IV Avids weigh about 540 pounds empty and have a Max gross of 1150 pounds, so they have useful loads of over 600 pounds! That's two good-sized people and some gas.

Beware of B or C models with car engines, those engines weigh a lot and rob useful load. Many car-engine Avids are really one person airplanes. I know this comment will get a lot of snipes.

Don't be worried about buying an aircraft far away from home. Most home builds are nicely built, and Avid's are specially open and easy to inspect. Get lots of photos and if you think you like the aircraft send a deposit, go to the airplane by airline, get a checkout and flight home. I bought my airplane from a great guy who lives in California and one of the great adventures of my life was flying it back from Sacramento to Connecticut across our wonderful country.

Use this forum as your sounding board there are dozens of experts and many of us have seen exactly what you're going to go through and can offer our advice.

Good luck and enjoy the hunt!

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Posted (edited)

I got bit by my own ignorance when buying my plane. I didn't know enough about 2 stroke engines and was so eager to buy a plane that I jumped on the first one that looked ok.

The seller lied to me about multiple things although I'm lucky the plane has an air worthiness certificate and in general is a solid airframe I should have paid about 4-5k less than I did. 

The rotax 2 strokes are only good for 5 years or 300 hrs before requiring new seals etc. I didn't know that and got a plane that needed an engine rebuild. To date all my flying has been behind 4 strokes and I knew next to nothing about 2 stroke operations. I would recommend learning those differences. Buy a dvd or get training otherwise you could end up trashing an engine (best case) or an airplane and yourself and passenger. 

The prop was also in need of replacing. It looked like it was in great shape but it had 3 wood blades bolted into a plastic hub. That plastic hub was recalled in 1989 and replaced with an aluminum one. Apparently whoever had it at the time never got the memo. Needless to say I took it off as soon as I learned that. 

And it had an aluminum fuel tank in the wing that was not plumbed. The seller told me it was fine and could be plumbed back in. I was dumb and didn't look into the tank. The aluminum tanks had a habit of cracking at the welds and were then sloshed to seal them. The sloshing compound frequently started flaking off which is obviously a bad thing. The flaking was dead obvious as soon as I did look in the tank. 

I'm enjoying rebuilding my plane and customizing it to make it exactly what i want. If that's not your thing make sure you know enough to not get burned. It would be a good thing to have someone who knows what they're looking at go over any plane before you commit to buying.  

Edited by Willja67
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Posted

I found  the kitfox narrow standard gear makes the plane squirrely and the model 1, 2 have too small tail surfaces... plenty on this site about that..

Look for a model 4, put grove landing gear on it. Then spend a little time to get the wheels aligned flat and parallel tothe ground, no toe in or toe out, no camber...you can use a laser level to shoot a spot on the tail or again a wall and snap a line down the center line of the plane on teh floor. once you  get the wheel aligned, get a 8" pneumatic tail wheel. You dont need hard tail spring for steering so use softer ones... 

 

Now start out on grass or gravel adn after a few hours start by doing takeoffs on asphalt or hard surface.. even tually you can land on hard surface, the plane will handle jsut fine, it is just you need to be able to land at a steady speed like 40-45, and with teh plane pointed down the runway.. ie you dont want to land cocked sideways even a little.... These planes are short coupled for sure... but if you do the above and it is a model 4 with the biggier tail and dont put any bigger than 800x6 tires on it to start with, later you can put 26" tires, those are over kill anyway because I flew all over the place and landed off airport with my 800s.

I have heard of dozens of people who buy a kitfox and ground loop it on first flight... if you look at teh Just super stol, it has a longer fuselage and wider gear both of which make for easier ground handling....

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