Avid+ flight Observations

[SuberAvid 617]

I must say that I have been really enjoying getting used to flying the Avid+. I have 8.5 hours on it now and about 7.5 hours air time. As I fly it and get used to it I am overall very pleased with it. I was hoping it would have turned out a lot lighter and I can see that a person could build a lighter airplane the second time around. There are places that I could have saved weight here and there, but now it is going to be a lot harder and probably involve more gym time and eating less.

It felt sort of heavy at first but as it fly it more, it still has the sporty feel of the Avid in the steep turns and slips, etc, but is also about the most stable airplane I have flown. It seems to have a little more stall warning shudder as you approach the stall and stalls straight ahead with almost no need to walk the rudder. The full power stalls are the same with no tendency to fall off a wing, just a nose drop and then it is flying again. After getting used to it I now think it is easier to land than the Mk 4, especially to do wheel landings. My Mk 4 never seemed very stable doing wheel landings and the tail was always up and down as I tried to keep the attitude and apply brakes. The A+ seems to be easier to hold steady with the tail up in a wheel landing. The seating position is higher and with the taller landing gear it took me a while to get the landing picture but I think that helps. I definitely like the higher seat, raised skylight and more leg room. Also I flew with my boot packs on last week and didn't have to worry about foot position on the pedals.

I have to build a better flap lever system for it, the 10 degree travel of the lever from full off to full on just doesn't cut it and the flaps will not stay on without continued significant pressure holding them on. I rigged up a real Rube Goldberg to hold them on with a bungee hooked tot eh frame behind the seats and onto the flap handle. When I want deploy the flaps I slide it to the top of he handle as I pull them on. Landings and take offs are much better and slower with flaps, and a must for wheel landings.

From what I can tell, it performs better than the Mk 4 on take off, although I haven't measure length yet. Acceleration is noticeably better. With a smooth push to full throttle (about 3 sec) the tail will come up and then you can rotate and pull full flaps and it comes off the ground. I am not sure what the min airspeed is to get off the ground yet though; I need to work on that still. It climbs out at 50 mph at around 800 fpm and no need to drop the nose to stay in ground affect. My Mk 4 was not a stellar performer and would climb out at 50 mph and around 650 fpm. So I think the A+ can equal or beat the my Mk 4 take off distance but probably not the landing distance due to the greater weight. It will be interesting to get it on skis and see what it does in the deep snow. With my big skis and the tail ski on I think the the 100 hp may more than overcome the weight difference there as well.

I was surprised that the A+ does not want to fly faster than the Mk 4. With the prop set at 16 degrees it cruses at about 80 mph at 3500 rpm. The cool thing is it shows 2.8 gph on the fuel flow meter and the plane and engine feel great. At 3600 rpm the Subie burns 3.2 gph and about 82 mph, and 4000 rpm is 90 mph and 4.5 gph. You can get quite a bit of range out of 28 gallons at 2.8 gph. I always figured on burning about 5 gph in the Mk 4 with the 582 in cruse at 82 mph. I reset the prop to 17 degrees for the next flight and then will try it a 15 degrees to see the affect on take off and cruse.

The longer fuselage and larger rudder definitely make the A+ more stable in cruse. My Mk 4 had to be herded along a bit by picking a point on the horizon to aim it at, which never bothered me on the relatively short flights I typically made. Last Saturday I set the A+ at 3500 rpm, trimmed it level and pointed it a the VOR, then took my hand off the stick for minutes and it flew like an arrow. I tried taking my feet off the rudder but immediately started turning left so it is not completely drone capable. I guess I am getting used to putting in right rudder subconsciously now. Have to watch that on take off too since it has noticeable torque compared to the Rotax.

Sorry this is so long winded, I might be just a little jazzed to be flying again; and after 4 years of wondering how it would perform.

[akflyer 1427]

That is AWESOME Randy! I have been really wondering how she was doing. It is nice when when a labor of love meets, or exceeds your expectations! I was going to try and fly out to the lodge this weekend, but the ice is a wee bit thin. My next chance will be towards the end of January the way things are looking right now. If the weather breaks and it clears up, I may fly up and see you next week. Will let you know if I head that way.

[dholly 718]

Thanks Randy, so far so good it sounds!

I am quite interested in hearing how the Soob is working out. Just as another point of reference, I've swapped a few emails with Vince Nartker who built and flies a full Avid+ kit w/ HH wing, nose gear and 912uls. He told me:

I fly with a friend @90-95mph 4900rpm and 5gph. The 80 would probably do the same on 3.5-4gph. I must admit this plane really climbs with that extra HP. I have flown it throughout Oregon , Washington and Idaho ….I like the back country back strips. I have also flown it to the San Juan islands …..lots of fun. If I push the engine to 5500rpm, flow rate increases to @7gpm and I get @ 110mph. I don’t have wheel pants…not the best thing for grass strips…..that might help a little. I don’t think the airplanes design is good for more than 100mph with out burning a lot of gas. The plane came in at 733lbs empty gross 1250lbs. I got about 260 + hours on the Plus so far…was flying today. It really is a nice light plane. I found that the spar would flex upward about 3 inches when in flight. That would make the ailerons really stiff and not real sensitive. I flew it almost 250 hours this way….it fly’s OK but was not like the Magnum after I started flying it. I added @2.5inches extension on the end of the aileron and another extension on the second inboard rib. What this does is bow the flaperon / aileron on the outer two rib supports. This now make the ailerons very sensitive….as the aileron are straight when under load. The bad part of this change is that the ailerons are very stiff on the ground. If I was to build these wings again, I would add a longer spar support in the spars. This would add very little weight, but make the spars stiffer and less bowing….which would make for more sensitive controls.

Keep those reports coming please!

Edited 25 Nov 2010 by dholly

[SuberAvid 617]

That is AWESOME Randy! I have been really wondering how she was doing. It is nice when when a labor of love meets, or exceeds your expectations! I was going to try and fly out to the lodge this weekend, but the ice is a wee bit thin. My next chance will be towards the end of January the way things are looking right now. If the weather breaks and it clears up, I may fly up and see you next week. Will let you know if I head that way.

Hey Leni, that sounds great. I will keep an eye on the Forum and I think you have my cell number. If not, let me know and I'll get it to you again. Hopefully I can get a new set of ski cables fabricated this weekend. I am waiting for some good snow outlook before I switch to skis, which is probably stupid since Palmer always gets a meltdown or wind about the time we get good snow. It just makes it more of a pain to load it on the trailer and take it to the lake every time; but it is about time to bite the bullet and do it.

Hope to see you next week.

[SuberAvid 617]

Thanks Randy, so far so good it sounds!

I am quite interested in hearing how the Soob is working out. Just as another point of reference, I've swapped a few emails with Vince Nartker who built and flies a full Avid+ kit w/ HH wing, nose gear and 912uls. He told me:

Keep those reports coming please!

Thanks for sharing that info Doug. I had not seen any other fliying information on the A+. With his 733 lb weight I'll bet that his plane is a pretty impressive performer. That is the nice thing about the Rotax 912, and a lot lighter wallet too! So far the Subie is doing good though. One thing I need to do is add a primer system. I just have the choke / enricher system hooked up which works good and is needed to get it to run smoothly until it gets warmed up a bit, but I don't think it helps much on starting. It is fairly hard to get it started initially and takes a lot of cranking. Once it has been run, I have left it for a few hours and it will start on the first crank just fine.

I have not noticed any of the flaperon stiffness that he describes. Mine feel smooth and sensitive and about the same on the ground as in the air. They are not quite as sensitive as the Mk 4, which I think is due to the push/pull cables and not push/pull tubes; but they are not bad or stiff at all. I had to build new extended flaperon hornes and mounted them so the PP cables act on them at close to 90 degrees so they would have the maximum travel and mechanical advantage of the cables; and I had to lower and move my cable mounting positions to be sure it didn't bind the cable rod on the housing through the full swing of the arc. I wonder if he might be getting some binding of his PP cables?

[ybfcsqs 0]

Hey guys ... your knocking me out! I'm trying hard to get my EA81 Subaru back into the air and thought I was the only person in the world doing so. Randy, I'm gobbling up your PIREPs and the detailed blow by blow. Even though yours is an A+ and mine is a Heavy Hauler (MKIV), this stuff is like manna from heaven. Saw your photos you referenced and man is that some sweet looking machine. I like the 'cheek' radiators, mine is mounted transversly between the main gear (hope to rework this in the future). Like the looks of your larger tires, I've got the small ones we most often use down south on the lower half of US of A.

Randy, where is your battery located? Had to locate mine in the tail due to my short fuselage and the heavier 4 banger. I'm going to let the guy who built mine take the old one out (a real project I'm told) so I can install a brand new Power Sonic 26 amp unit.

Any of you guys care to comment on hydraulic brake effectivenes? I've got a Scott steerable tailwheel but haven't seen much anchor power, at high taxi or manuvering tight.

It's a real pleasure to run into some kindred spirits - thanks all. Keep us informed Randy. Jim

[ybfcsqs 0]

I must say that I have been really enjoying getting used to flying the Avid+. I have 8.5 hours on it now and about 7.5 hours air time. As I fly it and get used to it I am overall very pleased with it. I was hoping it would have turned out a lot lighter and I can see that a person could build a lighter airplane the second time around. There are places that I could have saved weight here and there, but now it is going to be a lot harder and probably involve more gym time and eating less.

It felt sort of heavy at first but as it fly it more, it still has the sporty feel of the Avid in the steep turns and slips, etc, but is also about the most stable airplane I have flown. It seems to have a little more stall warning shudder as you approach the stall and stalls straight ahead with almost no need to walk the rudder. The full power stalls are the same with no tendency to fall off a wing, just a nose drop and then it is flying again. After getting used to it I now think it is easier to land than the Mk 4, especially to do wheel landings. My Mk 4 never seemed very stable doing wheel landings and the tail was always up and down as I tried to keep the attitude and apply brakes. The A+ seems to be easier to hold steady with the tail up in a wheel landing. The seating position is higher and with the taller landing gear it took me a while to get the landing picture but I think that helps. I definitely like the higher seat, raised skylight and more leg room. Also I flew with my boot packs on last week and didn't have to worry about foot position on the pedals.

I have to build a better flap lever system for it, the 10 degree travel of the lever from full off to full on just doesn't cut it and the flaps will not stay on without continued significant pressure holding them on. I rigged up a real Rube Goldberg to hold them on with a bungee hooked tot eh frame behind the seats and onto the flap handle. When I want deploy the flaps I slide it to the top of he handle as I pull them on. Landings and take offs are much better and slower with flaps, and a must for wheel landings.

From what I can tell, it performs better than the Mk 4 on take off, although I haven't measure length yet. Acceleration is noticeably better. With a smooth push to full throttle (about 3 sec) the tail will come up and then you can rotate and pull full flaps and it comes off the ground. I am not sure what the min airspeed is to get off the ground yet though; I need to work on that still. It climbs out at 50 mph at around 800 fpm and no need to drop the nose to stay in ground affect. My Mk 4 was not a stellar performer and would climb out at 50 mph and around 650 fpm. So I think the A+ can equal or beat the my Mk 4 take off distance but probably not the landing distance due to the greater weight. It will be interesting to get it on skis and see what it does in the deep snow. With my big skis and the tail ski on I think the the 100 hp may more than overcome the weight difference there as well.

I was surprised that the A+ does not want to fly faster than the Mk 4. With the prop set at 16 degrees it cruses at about 80 mph at 3500 rpm. The cool thing is it shows 2.8 gph on the fuel flow meter and the plane and engine feel great. At 3600 rpm the Subie burns 3.2 gph and about 82 mph, and 4000 rpm is 90 mph and 4.5 gph. You can get quite a bit of range out of 28 gallons at 2.8 gph. I always figured on burning about 5 gph in the Mk 4 with the 582 in cruse at 82 mph. I reset the prop to 17 degrees for the next flight and then will try it a 15 degrees to see the affect on take off and cruse.

The longer fuselage and larger rudder definitely make the A+ more stable in cruse. My Mk 4 had to be herded along a bit by picking a point on the horizon to aim it at, which never bothered me on the relatively short flights I typically made. Last Saturday I set the A+ at 3500 rpm, trimmed it level and pointed it a the VOR, then took my hand off the stick for minutes and it flew like an arrow. I tried taking my feet off the rudder but immediately started turning left so it is not completely drone capable. I guess I am getting used to putting in right rudder subconsciously now. Have to watch that on take off too since it has noticeable torque compared to the Rotax.

Sorry this is so long winded, I might be just a little jazzed to be flying again; and after 4 years of wondering how it would perform.

Hey Randy,

Just talked to EFS and ascertained that they are still very much in business and will overhaul my EFS-2 throttle body if I send it back to them. It feels like Christmas all over again. They gave me another website (ELLISON-TBI.COM) and even had my serial number on record. To put it mildly, I'm in a most joyous mood! Gonna ship it out as soon as possible, they give a return time of around two weeks. Price seems right for the overhaul (approx. cost as per LOU) and I'm gonna be flying behind a nice overhauled EFS-2. Miracles do still happen and this will be one step closer to climbing back in the seat. Hope I don't knock down my buddy's fence like last time, but that's another story for later. Be well and keep s abreast of you and your bird. BTW, I'll be able to give you more definite performance data on the engine/NSI PRU/prop etc. later on. Jim

[SuberAvid 617]

Hey Jim, that is great news! One step closer to getting it in the air. I will be interested in your specs; like I said in my other reply, our TO RPM's are quite different so I am qurious what your redrive ratio is and where you measure your blade angle on your prop.

JackAk will be running a Stratus EA81 in his Avid + when he gets it completed so we will have another one to compare notes with. Hopefully he will be able to get it in the air sometime this year. I might even get to be the test pilot for his plane since I manged to first flight mine without damage . His setup will be pretty similar to mine but with the radiator on the belly, a 70" Warp Drive prop and leading edge cuffs on his wings.

On the location of the battery, I placed mine as far in the back of my baggage area as I could get it and also put my ELT there; it is about 6' behind the seats. Also, the additional 18" fusalage helps counter the subie engine weight and I still have to have a minimum of 10 lbs in my rear baggage to be within the CG range. That isn't a problem for me because I have about 40 lbs of survival gear that I always carry and I just keep it in the rear baggage area. For your MK IV you may want to consider installing an access door very near your tail and keep your battery as far backin the tail as it will fit. I have a buddy who has a MK IV with a Subie on floats and it has lead weights in the tails of the floats plus lead weights bolted onto the tail spring. keep your battery as far back as possible so you don't have to add any unecessary weight if if you can.

On the brakes. I don't know of many avid/KF owners who have outstanding brakes, especially with 26" bushwheel on. I ended up replacing the original matco brakes on my MK IV with the Matco remote reservoir master cylinders and moved the top piston mounting position as close to the pivot point as I could get it. I also replace the wheel units with Matco triple puck brakes adapted to fit the original Matco discs. These provide acceptable braking; I can hold the plane with the brakes and blow the tail up with power without a problem. I switched the setup over to my Avid+.

Keep us up to date on your progress.

Randy

[akflyer 1427]

Time to update the ole Avatar pic...

The new bird is way to nice to not show it off!

[SuberAvid 617]

Time to update the ole Avatar pic...

The new bird is way to nice to not show it off!

Thanks Leni, I will do that; I was thinking the same thing when I saw yours. I don't remember how to do it; can you give a quick refresher on that for me and any new members who are as internet challenged as I am?

Randy

[akflyer 1427]

Thanks Leni, I will do that; I was thinking the same thing when I saw yours. I don't remember how to do it; can you give a quick refresher on that for me and any new members who are as internet challenged as I am?

Randy

Randy,

I just put up a little how too in the general hagar section. I pinned it so it is at the top of the list of topics, way way up at the top

[ybfcsqs 0]

Hey Jim, that is great news! One step closer to getting it in the air. I will be interested in your specs; like I said in my other reply, our TO RPM's are quite different so I am qurious what your redrive ratio is and where you measure your blade angle on your prop.

JackAk will be running a Stratus EA81 in his Avid + when he gets it completed so we will have another one to compare notes with. Hopefully he will be able to get it in the air sometime this year. I might even get to be the test pilot for his plane since I manged to first flight mine without damage . His setup will be pretty similar to mine but with the radiator on the belly, a 70" Warp Drive prop and leading edge cuffs on his wings.

On the location of the battery, I placed mine as far in the back of my baggage area as I could get it and also put my ELT there; it is about 6' behind the seats. Also, the additional 18" fusalage helps counter the subie engine weight and I still have to have a minimum of 10 lbs in my rear baggage to be within the CG range. That isn't a problem for me because I have about 40 lbs of survival gear that I always carry and I just keep it in the rear baggage area. For your MK IV you may want to consider installing an access door very near your tail and keep your battery as far backin the tail as it will fit. I have a buddy who has a MK IV with a Subie on floats and it has lead weights in the tails of the floats plus lead weights bolted onto the tail spring. keep your battery as far back as possible so you don't have to add any unecessary weight if if you can.

On the brakes. I don't know of many avid/KF owners who have outstanding brakes, especially with 26" bushwheel on. I ended up replacing the original matco brakes on my MK IV with the Matco remote reservoir master cylinders and moved the top piston mounting position as close to the pivot point as I could get it. I also replace the wheel units with Matco triple puck brakes adapted to fit the original Matco discs. These provide acceptable braking; I can hold the plane with the brakes and blow the tail up with power without a problem. I switched the setup over to my Avid+.

Keep us up to date on your progress.

Randy

Right on Randy, love the detailed feedback you give. I have my battery as far back in the tail as possible. My CG is also quite positive and was really interested in your response regarding this. Have some lead in the tail along with the battery. Have also thought about a baggage access door to allow me to keep some extra weight in this area. Your info on the brakes, I find this very informative. Have also thought of going to a multiple puck caliper at some time. Seems like you're getting much better effectiveness with yours. Hope you get the chance to test fly the Subie under construction. It will be good also, to have another config around to compare notes on. You sound like a standup guy Randy. Thanks once again for your input ... Jim

[ybfcsqs 0]

Hey Subie AVID guys,

I'm still tied up with a home addition, a beloved dad in the hospital with a broken neck (88 yrs old), and a need to get all my stuff moved from my old address 45 min one way, to my new residence (two new storage buildings/garages wich I have built just to contain all the junk, tools, and what-nots of my life to this point). Am presently adding two more rooms onto my house (contracting a remodeling job is definitely worse than herding cats). Now have a total of five buildings on this property and still wonder if I'll cram everything in. Have any of you dealt directly with AIRDALE? If so could you give me a general idea of your experience? My initial impression would be favorable toward them. In the future would like to think in terms of a longer fuselage and wider gear on my MKIV. Do they sell just complete kits or can individual items be purchased? I know I should just call them but I'm working a rather hectic pace at the moment. Randy, haven't got the Ellison throttle body shipped back to get it overhauled yet - got to get these builders, electricians, dry wallers, painters, etc to step up the pace. There are times I just have to leave for about 30 minutes or so to keep from blowing a big-time fuse. Haven't physically assualted anyone. You guys take care ... Jim

[Av8r3400 1178]

Jim--

Brett (owner of Airdale) is a personal friend of mine. He is easy to work with and will put together what ever parts you need, be it an entire kit or only sub-components.

He is a one man show, with a young family, so his time is always in very short supply.

If you are thorough with your explanation of what you want and realistic in your time expectations, he will be able to help you.

[ybfcsqs 0]

Hey Av8r3400 Wisconsin fellow. There's nothing better than having contact with a friend of a guy who seems to be a real resource for guys like me (I never, EVER use one or two words when I can just as easily use a thousand).

Thanks for the comeback man, this kind of info is treasure at it's finest to me. I tried to call Brett once, left a voicemail, he called back - I wasn't here and so it goes. I've certainly got my eye on him and will get back with him. Crazy schedule right now. You're a standup dude to ring me back (love this website) and it won't be forgotten. Be well and prosper greatly ... Jim

[akflyer 1427]

I will second the nod to Brett. He has been very good about getting back to me on any of my calls and pretty timely getting parts out. I know we would all love to think that our order is the most important one he could possibly be dealing with right the second we call, but as Larry pointed out, Brett is a one man band so we have to keep that in mind.

When I received the tail ski I was ready to have to go over all the welds ( I am a certified welding inspector and Quality Control Manager) so not only am I about function, but appearance and workman ship are a huge teller of a mans welding abilities. Brett's parts were all fit very nicely and the welding looked great! I will continue to order as many parts as I can from him to help keep the line of birds growing, and keep the parts available for those "uhoh" times.

[ybfcsqs 0]

Leni, it means a lot to hear a socond opinion which coroborates a first opinion. One thing I really like about this website is that the people I've talked to seem to be square shooters. This is hands down one of the best sources of info of any site I've been on. I feel like I'm always communicating with people who've been there and done it. Kudos to admin on this site for really putting together something useful (unlike some of the social networking sites where really important topics such as which goes better with the color yellow, blue or royal purple seem to become the topics of the day). BTW, Av8r if you could clue me in on how you hooked up your ICOM A6 I would be all ears. I have an older A21 model (love it) which I plan on using with the two plug headphones, [David Clarks], and the already installed intercom in my ship. I have a schematic which seems to indicate that my PTT should place ground on the tip of each xmit I want to use to xmit through the A21. One pilot I've googled states that he lost his primary navcom out in the Bahamas and still was able to work communications and nav people 70 mi. out by just connected his A21 to his comm antennae or his nav antennae through switching his BNC cables. I think our little ICOM handhelds are pretty potent. Guys, may you all prosper and live long lives ... Jim

[Av8r3400 1178]

Jim, you must have me confused with someone else. I have a Terra 760 panel mount comm radio in my plane. My iCom IC-A6 stays in my pocket as a backup...

[ybfcsqs 0]

Jim, you must have me confused with someone else. I have a Terra 760 panel mount comm radio in my plane. My iCom IC-A6 stays in my pocket as a backup...

Sorry good buddy. I saw a video approach to 2010 'Sun and FUN' in which the A6 showed up on some guy's instrument panel. I know it was an ICOM A6, don't know exactly how I got it confused with you. My bad. This is what happens when you get old, slow, with just a little bit too much altitude. Promise to keep her straight and level from now on. Good tidings ... Jim

[Av8r3400 1178]

I used to have a video on YouTube of an approach to Sun 'n Fun 2010, but those bastards deleted it for no reason. My old laptop will lockup when ever I try an do video stuff any more, so the vids will have to wait on a new computer....

[akflyer 1427]

I used to have a video on YouTube of an approach to Sun 'n Fun 2010, but those bastards deleted it for no reason. My old laptop will lockup when ever I try an do video stuff any more, so the vids will have to wait on a new computer....

I think that is why Greg Swingle puts all his videos on VIMEO. not as much of a pain as utube. Utube pissed me off when they dissabled the music (and all sound) on mine yet there are 10 bazzilion videos on there with music that I can promise the guys didn't take the time to get permission from the original artist to use the music..

[akflyer 1427]

Sorry good buddy. I saw a video approach to 2010 'Sun and FUN' in which the A6 showed up on some guy's instrument panel. I know it was an ICOM A6, don't know exactly how I got it confused with you. My bad. This is what happens when you get old, slow, with just a little bit too much altitude. Promise to keep her straight and level from now on. Good tidings ... Jim

Hmm, that is frowned on around here.. Straight and level gets pretty boring real quick!

[ybfcsqs 0]

Hey guy, It's your video and a good one it is. I don't know how I interposed the deal of seeing the ICOM A6 on your instrument panel, however. I did watch the video again and liked it just as much the second time. Wish more people would do more informative stuff like that. I have a friend down here who has an in-cockpit of a four turn spin in his Aronca Champ. He and I were going to do another one using a two ship view from one plane looking at the other. Haven't done it yet. Got to get my wayward ducks in a row and get my AVID airworthy. Take care ... Jim

[ybfcsqs 0]

I think that is why Greg Swingle puts all his videos on VIMEO. not as much of a pain as utube. Utube pissed me off when they dissabled the music (and all sound) on mine yet there are 10 bazzilion videos on there with music that I can promise the guys didn't take the time to get permission from the original artist to use the music..

Yeah man, I've got one or two on FACEBOOK, one on FLIKR, nothing really. FACEBOOK wont let you upload but so much, FLIKR is better but a little more complicated. I haven't really done anything in a while, FACEBOOK drives me wild with the say nothing - do nothing crowd. Need to get my ship back up and learn a few editing techniques. See you ... Jim

[ybfcsqs 0]

Hmm, that is frowned on around here.. Straight and level gets pretty boring real quick!

No doubt - BTW did I mention I always keep one foot on the ground. Anyone who would make Sun n' Fun from Wisconsin gets a vote from me. Must have been a great flight with all the others. Half the fun is going somewhere with your buddies. See ya ... Jim