Avid or Kitfox?

[kinou747 0]

First, I want to introduce myself : I am French, from Bordeaux, the wine country, so may be sometime my english will be like all French guys.

I am a former Navy fighter pilot with some non official wars and some officials(Libanon, Lybia, Tchad, gulf 1) and now Ailrline pilot, flying the B747/400 for Corsairfly. We are landing at Miami.

I am the proud owner of a very rare PZL TS-8 Bies, under restoration (first flight around june 2011) and I was one of the pilot for the movie Amelia on the L12A.

But my concern is to have a real plane and I need your knowledge to choose from an Avid or Kitfox!

I want to fly with my kid, he is 13 now and have some fun with the plane.

We do not need a stol performer but prefer do sometime very light aerobatics (one rool and one loop) so I was thinking about a speedster or a sppedwing.

I have read a lot on the web and I have found speedsters, speedwings, optima, aerobat,etc, etc....I am lost.

Here in France, kitfox models are more on the used market than Avid.

I have found a nice 1996 kitfox IV rotax 582 with only 300 SNTT but with stol wings. Do you think it is possible to shorteen the wings or do I have to built new ones?

Is there strongest and short wings for this model? (I do not want ultimate aerobatics but I want ot be on the safe side)

Is the Avid better for that and wich model with wich wings?

In my idea, kitfox is more simple with 2 models of wings : short or long as the avid is more than 2 with differents lenght, chord, profile, etc...

HELP!!!!

Edited 25 Jan 2011 by kinou747

[akflyer 1427]

First, I want to introduce myself : I am French, from Bordeaux, the wine country, so may be sometime my english will be like all French guys.

I am a former Navy fighter pilot with some non official wars and some officials(Libanon, Lybia, Tchad, gulf 1) and now Ailrline pilot, flying the B747/400 for Corsairfly. We are landing at Miami.

I am the proud owner of a very rare PZL TS-8 Bies, under restoration (first flight around june 2011) and I was one of the pilot for the movie Amelia on the L12A.

But my concern is to have a real plane and I need your knowledge to choose from an Avid or Kitfox!

I want to fly with my kid, he is 13 now and have some fun with the plane.

We do not need a stol performer but prefer do sometime very light aerobatics (one rool and one loop) so I was thinking about a speedster or a sppedwing.

I have read a lot on the web and I have found speedsters, speedwings, optima, aerobat,etc, etc....I am lost.

Here in France, kitfox models are more on the used market than Avid.

I have found a nice 1996 kitfox IV rotax 582 with only 300 SNTT but with stol wings. Do you think it is possible to shorteen the wings or do I have to built new ones?

Is there strongest and short wings for this model? (I do not want ultimate aerobatics but I want ot be on the safe side)

Is the Avid better for that and wich model with wich wings?

In my idea, kitfox is more simple with 2 models of wings : short or long as the avid is more than 2 with differents lenght, chord, profile, etc...

HELP!!!!

First off welcome to the forum! That is quite the spread, stepping out of a 747 into a kitfox Second, Thanks for your service! I spose that with the navy time in we can cut ya some slack on the frenchman jokes

The kitfox with the STOL wing cant just be shortened up and made into a "speedster" wing. The STOL wing (both AVID and Kitfox) are under cambered and they are not the heavier spars. You can build the "speedster wing for that model IV and do mild aerobatics. Look on you tube for Jimmy Franklin Kitfox. It shows him doing some pretty decent aerobatics (loop with a snap at the top) Point rolls etc. with a kitfox speedster.

I think a guy in Michigan has a set of speedster wings for sale right now. Have them shipped to Miami and stuff em in the 747 on your way through.

The Avid wings all have the same cord. There are 3 basic wings:

1) The STOL wing. Under Cambered ribs and full length wing.

2) The Heavy Hauler wing (same under cambered rib as the STOL) but closer rib spacing and heavier spars.

3) Speed Wing, or Aerobat wing (I think that this is the same wing, people just called it different things over the years). It is shorter and has a semi symmetrical profile. There is a kit to add 18" back on to the speed wing (each side) to make it full length but with the semi symmetrical airfoil.

That TS-8 looks pretty damn cool, and you just cant beat a radial for cool factor!

[kinou747 0]

Thanks for your answer!

Here is some pictures of the Bies TS8

http://www.hiboox.fr/flash/diaporama/skinDiaporamaPortable.swf?lang=fr&fichierXml=http://flux0.hiboox.com/XMLdiapoforpublic.php?album=3e11f798454fcfaf656c71d68053b065

Good idea for the wings from Michigan and the 747 at Miami : just need a contact to buy them.

Here is a copy from an email received from Kitfox :

Jacques,

We only ship the standard wing.. but it can be shortened by you to make it a Speedster.

You told me that the kitfox with the STOL wing cant just be shortened up and made into a "speedster" wing.

What do I have to order and where to built a speedster wing?

I supose that with the navy time in we can cut ya some slack on the frenchman jokes You know, we have some on other country, even your's!

And as I did some landing on your boats, I think I know a lot about that

Edited 25 Jan 2011 by kinou747

[efil 01 74]

Salut Kinou , wow, wonderfull pilot career !

As i'm french too and fly in Gers my little ultralight...sorry for US friends mais je continurai en français

Je construit actuellement un avid C et je possède aussi un ulm prototype

http://tagazous.free.fr/affichage2.php?img=21753

En ce qui concerne ton choix, je penses que si tu désires rester avion et non ulm, le kitfox plus lourd que l'avid et plus spacieux peut être plus adapté.

En ce qui concerne l'avid aérobat, c'est une aile heavyhauler d'envergure racourcie (une travée entre deux attaches de flapperons en moins) avec le profil speed biconvexe dissymétrique. C'est uniquement à la masse max totale de 413kg que tu peux faire de la voltige, ça laisse peu de charge utile pour partager des figures avec passager.

L'avis d'un humble pilote d'ulm

[akflyer 1427]

Damn nice shot! I would give my left nut to take that ride one time!

Dont take any offense to the jokes part It's just the smart ass in me

I will see if I can find the number to the guy in Michigan that has the wings.

[akflyer 1427]

Salut Kinou , wow, wonderfull pilot career !

As i'm french too and fly in Gers my little ultralight...sorry for US friends mais je continurai en français

Je construit actuellement un avid C et je possède aussi un ulm prototype

http://tagazous.free...2.php?img=21753

En ce qui concerne ton choix, je penses que si tu désires rester avion et non ulm, le kitfox plus lourd que l'avid et plus spacieux peut être plus adapté.

En ce qui concerne l'avid aérobat, c'est une aile heavyhauler d'envergure racourcie (une travée entre deux attaches de flapperons en moins) avec le profil speed biconvexe dissymétrique. C'est uniquement à la masse max totale de 413kg que tu peux faire de la voltige, ça laisse peu de charge utile pour partager des figures avec passager.

L'avis d'un humble pilote d'ulm

hmmm, why do I get the feeling that some where in there you probably called me an asshole hahahahaha.

[kinou747 0]

Damn nice shot! I would give my left nut to take that ride one time!

Dont take any offense to the jokes part It's just the smart ass in me

I will see if I can find the number to the guy in Michigan that has the wings.

Thanks for the number and be sure that I am really not offensed for the jokes. With some years in the navy and now in an airline, just think what can people on the ground and crew members can tell about pilots!!!

And if you want to take a ride with the Bies, you are welcome! And you can do it without loosing something...

Edited 26 Jan 2011 by kinou747

[kinou747 0]

Salut Kinou , wow, wonderfull pilot career !

As i'm french too and fly in Gers my little ultralight...sorry for US friends mais je continurai en français

Je construit actuellement un avid C et je possède aussi un ulm prototype

http://tagazous.free.fr/affichage2.php?img=21753

En ce qui concerne ton choix, je penses que si tu désires rester avion et non ulm, le kitfox plus lourd que l'avid et plus spacieux peut être plus adapté.

En ce qui concerne l'avid aérobat, c'est une aile heavyhauler d'envergure racourcie (une travée entre deux attaches de flapperons en moins) avec le profil speed biconvexe dissymétrique. C'est uniquement à la masse max totale de 413kg que tu peux faire de la voltige, ça laisse peu de charge utile pour partager des figures avec passager.

L'avis d'un humble pilote d'ulm

on peux en parler de vive voix?

06 01 94 41 33

jacquessuire@aol.com

[kinou747 0]

hmmm, why do I get the feeling that some where in there you probably called me an asshole hahahahaha.

No, really not. The other french guy say the same about the Avid.

[Av8r3400 1178]

kinou-- In regard to the Kitfoxes, the model 4 and later Kitfoxes all have the same wing rib profile. This profile is a laminar flow, higher speed wing than the earlier Kitfoxes and Avids. This wing CAN be shortened. One friend here is building a Kitfox with a 24' wing. (Full span is 32')

The videos on YouTube showing a Kitfox doing aerobatics is a model 4, with a 29' wing, Rotax 912UL and very few other modifications.

[kinou747 0]

kinou-- In regard to the Kitfoxes, the model 4 and later Kitfoxes all have the same wing rib profile. This profile is a laminar flow, higher speed wing than the earlier Kitfoxes and Avids. This wing CAN be shortened. One friend here is building a Kitfox with a 24' wing. (Full span is 32')

24' wing! Do you have speeds for that?

Do you also know what other mods than the wing what done on the kitfox doing aerobatics on the video? Or what do you think is needed to be modified to do aerobatics?

Best,

Jacques

[Av8r3400 1178]

That plane is still under construction, so no data yet.

The builder is a friend of Dean Wilson (the designer of the Avid Flyer) and has gone over his plans with Dean and they believe that the handling will be very spry similar to a clipped wing Piper.

(Short wing Piper death trap. )

Like a short wing Piper, they don't expect the stall speed to be drastically higher than the standard wing, somewhere in the 45 mph range. But the roll rate, well...

[efil 01 74]

on peux en parler de vive voix?

06 01 94 41 33

jacquessuire@aol.com

salut, je n'en sais pas beaucoup plus, surtout que je suis aussi assez nouveau dans le monde des Avid mais pas de problemes pour en parler. J'essaierai de t'appeler dans la journée...

sinon, voici le lien du groupe français des avid flyers.

http://fr.groups.yahoo.com/group/avid-flyer/

[akflyer 1427]

That plane is still under construction, so no data yet.

The builder is a friend of Dean Wilson (the designer of the Avid Flyer) and has gone over his plans with Dean and they believe that the handling will be very spry similar to a clipped wing Piper.

(Short wing Piper death trap. )

Like a short wing Piper, they don't expect the stall speed to be drastically higher than the standard wing, somewhere in the 45 mph range. But the roll rate, well...

Kick that bee's nest Mr.

Hell yeah, I fly a death trap (crashed one too)

[kinou747 0]

Some news??

[Av8r3400 1178]

I went ski flying last Saturday.

Egypt is a mess.

Leni is fairly ugly.

The American Government is corrupt.

Joey is too young.

I'm running short on firewood.

What else you wanna know?

[akflyer 1427]

I went ski flying last Saturday.

Egypt is a mess.

Leni is fairly ugly.

The American Government is corrupt.

Joey is too young.

I'm running short on firewood.

What else you wanna know?

I am guessing the ole Bday didnt go as planned

I may be ugly but the ladies love me

[efil 01 74]

Some news??

hello kinou,

je ne sais pas s'il est à vendre mais regarde celui là, je pense que c'est exactement ce que tu recherche...

peut etre peux tu contacter le proprio pour avoir + d'infos pratiques sur l'avid aerobat

http://tagazous.free.fr/affichage.php?immat=F-PLJJ

un autre indice sur le proprietaire

http://frederic.secchi.free.fr/PHP/index.php?/category/1073

Edited 1 Feb 2011 by manu F

[kinou747 0]

hello kinou,

je ne sais pas s'il est à vendre mais regarde celui là, je pense que c'est exactement ce que tu recherche...

peut etre peux tu contacter le proprio pour avoir + d'infos pratiques sur l'avid aerobat

http://tagazous.free.fr/affichage.php?immat=F-PLJJ

un autre indice sur le proprietaire

http://frederic.secchi.free.fr/PHP/index.php?/category/1073

Merci, je vais voir ça!

[kinou747 0]

I went ski flying last Saturday. Just Saturday?

Egypt is a mess. Have you been in Egypt???

Leni is fairly ugly. Poor guy...

The American Government is corrupt. We all know that, it is not new

Joey is too young. For Leni???

I'm running short on firewood. Go to Egypt, they have some oil.

What else you wanna know? May be the phone number for the short wings for sale...

[akflyer 1427]

AVID FLYER MK4 WINGS • $4,500 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • AVID FLYER MK4 WINGS • $4,500 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • White. Extended Speedwings built in 1998 with flaperons. Straight, etc. On a flying plane until recently. Could use recover before long or else rejuvenate. Right wing has approx 16gals fuel tank. These were ordered from Avid as Aerobat wings with the heavier spars and 12" rib spacing, then the option extensions added. Nice looking wings with flaperons. • Contact Chris Prada, Owner - located Warwick, RI USA • Telephone: 4019652700 • Posted January 17, 2011

These were not the wings I was thinking of, but I found them on Barnstormers. The extensions are easy to remove and would give you the short aerobat wing that you are looking for.

A buddy has a MK IV with these same wings, and I could get his plane in and out just as short as I could mine with the under cambered wings, but his had a better roll rate. I have not flown one with just the short aerobat wing, but I bet she is pretty sporty as a short wing on the roll rate. It's not an Extra, or an Edge, but she rolls alot faster than a cub or a 172

[kinou747 0]

AVID FLYER MK4 WINGS • $4,500 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • AVID FLYER MK4 WINGS • $4,500 • AVAILABLE FOR SALE • White. Extended Speedwings built in 1998 with flaperons. Straight, etc. On a flying plane until recently. Could use recover before long or else rejuvenate. Right wing has approx 16gals fuel tank. These were ordered from Avid as Aerobat wings with the heavier spars and 12" rib spacing, then the option extensions added. Nice looking wings with flaperons. • Contact Chris Prada, Owner - located Warwick, RI USA • Telephone: 4019652700 • Posted January 17, 2011

These were not the wings I was thinking of, but I found them on Barnstormers. The extensions are easy to remove and would give you the short aerobat wing that you are looking for.

A buddy has a MK IV with these same wings, and I could get his plane in and out just as short as I could mine with the under cambered wings, but his had a better roll rate. I have not flown one with just the short aerobat wing, but I bet she is pretty sporty as a short wing on the roll rate. It's not an Extra, or an Edge, but she rolls alot faster than a cub or a 172

Thanks for your help.