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One of my boys and my C build.

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Would literally have to start over. Randy have sketches/drawings on his gear? How much taller is the tall gear and how much taller are Randy's?

I built a jig to make my gear 5.5" taller than the Airdale wide bungee gear. I kept the same width but it ends up wider on the Avid + becaus the fusalage is 6" wider. I also built it with three connection points to the fusalage to take more hard landing abuse and allow me to build a wider triangle on the gear legs. It turned out good and I am very glad I did it since it made wheel landing in the plane much easier and I don't really have any tendency to drag the tail anymore when comming in slow. I was originally going to make the gear 7" taller but changed my mind at the last minute because the tube lengths looked extremely long. I also increased the OD of all the tubes by one size over the Airdale gear but kept the wall thickness the same and placed the step at midpoint with a support tube to the tube running up to the bungee to brace them all at midpoint. One other thing I did was add a slight camber to my axle /backing plates to compensate for the bungee flex and sag. This pictures are with the plane on my shortee 21" tires so it sits a little taller with it on the 26" Bushwheels

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Posted · Report post

Hi Randy,

Thanks for the info and pix of a very nice looking Avid.

Couple quick questions.

Do you know if Airdales wide gear is taller than stock Avid gear? If so, how much.

Maybe better yet, how much taller is your gear over stock?

I sure like the way your place looks sitting on that taller gear. Has me thinking,,,,

Thanks again,

Dale

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Posted · Report post

Hi Randy,

Thanks for the info and pix of a very nice looking Avid.

Couple quick questions.

Do you know if Airdales wide gear is taller than stock Avid gear? If so, how much.

Maybe better yet, how much taller is your gear over stock?

I sure like the way your place looks sitting on that taller gear. Has me thinking,,,,

Thanks again,

Dale

Hi Dale,

I am not sure if the Airdale wide gear is taller than the stock Avid gear or not; I have a set of both so will have to take some measurements and get back to you on that and I will measure my gear height against the stock Avid gear. My whole intent was to keep or increase my angle of attack with the longer Avid+ fusalage. I actually increased it some I think becaus it does not tend to drag the TW on takeoff or landing and my Avid did all the time. (besides, I think it looks better too)

Randy

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Jumping out of sequence on order of pictures I want to post in this topic, but here goes.

The (used) Kitfox controls stick bolted directly to the existing Avid controls stick mounting brackets. If we were not relocating the ,mixer to under the seat, I'm sure this KF mixer would have bolted directly in the Avid mixer mounts as well.

Thanks Doug. With ssooo much left to build for this project, I can just about imagine how many hours we've saved with these KF parts.

post-362-13234003356599_thumb.jpg

Edited by C150L

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Posted · Report post

Hey Dale & Son, hope all is well! Have you made much progress on the project this year? You were moving along so fast maybe you're out flying now? :)

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Hey Dale & Son, hope all is well! Have you made much progress on the project this year? You were moving along so fast maybe you're out flying now? :)

Sorry Doug and folks. Been just a bit busy to post updates. . Been slow progress on the project this year. Some heat reasons, some funds reasons and some other reasons, one being flying the Clipper, so all's not bad. I'll get back in here soon and post some updates.

I'm off all next week but it's time for Oshkosh. Probably most everyday if possible. Maybe see some of you there.

I've also got myself involved with the following exciting program. We'll be in (I believe) the home builders building working on another plane project. See link. Aviators By Design

Dale

Edited by C150L

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Sure would like to know weight of the corvair - believe it is heavier than the Soob, especially if you have a redrive.

And probably longer too - need to have it right at firewall.

Guess you know about the mod for a 5th main bearing they say is needed?

If you need farther forward CG, and about 8 more square feet of wing, look at my post on extended leading edges, and photos of mine, in Avidfoxflyers Hanger.

Wishing you success on your build. Lots more work than just a kit.

ED in MO

EDIT: Looking back at some of your posts - swinging wings forward can cause tip stalls - better to extend leading edges, and get more lift from extra wing area, IMO.

ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted · Report post

Sure would like to know weight of the corvair - believe it is heavier than the Soob, especially if you have a redrive.

And probably longer too - need to have it right at firewall.

Guess you know about the mod for a 5th main bearing they say is needed?

If you need farther forward CG, and about 8 more square feet of wing, look at my post on extended leading edges, and photos of mine, in Avidfoxflyers Hanger.

Wishing you success on your build. Lots more work than just a kit.

ED in MO

EDIT: Looking back at some of your posts - swinging wings forward can cause tip stalls - better to extend leading edges, and get more lift from extra wing area, IMO.

ED in MO

Lots of guys swung the wings forward, and it was a factory recomended "mod" for the guys putting in the heavier engines. If built per manual, there is so darn much washout in the wings I dont think you could get a good tip stall going if you worked at it! When 80% of the wing is stalled (fronm the root outboard) those darn tips are still flying and just hold you in a mush. I have tried every kind of out of coordination configuration on the stalls and I cant get mine or the other 3 I have flown to give me a real break like a spam can will. The only way I have been able to get a "good" break is full power VERY rapid pull the nose up till your looking at the sky at a 60 deg + angle and hold it there till your out of speed. It will break through the horizon then start flying again.

Just my observations on these lil guys and tip stalls.

:BC:

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Lots of guys swung the wings forward, and it was a factory recomended "mod" for the guys putting in the heavier engines. If built per manual, there is so darn much washout in the wings I dont think you could get a good tip stall going if you worked at it! When 80% of the wing is stalled (fronm the root outboard) those darn tips are still flying and just hold you in a mush. I have tried every kind of out of coordination configuration on the stalls and I cant get mine or the other 3 I have flown to give me a real break like a spam can will. The only way I have been able to get a "good" break is full power VERY rapid pull the nose up till your looking at the sky at a 60 deg + angle and hold it there till your out of speed. It will break through the horizon then start flying again.

Just my observations on these lil guys and tip stalls.

:BC:

Not disagreeing with you on that. However, my aero-engineering design books did not take into account the large amount of washout that these planes have. Eliminating that washout could change stall characteristics with forward sweep. Sort of unknown territory there.

If I was building mine from scratch again, I would only have 1/2 inch of washout, and I would move the crossover tubes forward unless I found a reason that it wouldnt be feasable. Like changing the location of the lower pivot point. Any mod is like opening a new can of worms.

Still, the LE extension gives more lift benefit than just sweeping forward.

ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Not disagreeing with you on that. However, my aero-engineering design books did not take into account the large amount of washout that these planes have. Eliminating that washout could change stall characteristics with forward sweep. Sort of unknown territory there.

If I was building mine from scratch again, I would only have 1/2 inch of washout, and I would move the crossover tubes forward unless I found a reason that it wouldnt be feasable. Like changing the location of the lower pivot point. Any mod is like opening a new can of worms.

Still, the LE extension gives more lift benefit than just sweeping forward.

ED in MO

I agree that the leading edge extention gives you more benifits than just sweeping the wing forwards, I also agree that I would build mine with only 1/2" of washout not 1.5" -1.75" (the depth of a 2X4). I was just pointing out that many have swept the wing forwards when installing a 912 or subie on the earlier model planes and none have reported any nasty tip stalls. Everything about these planes flight characteristics is pretty mundane except for those which they were designed. STOL SLOW FUN!

:BC:

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I agree that the leading edge extention gives you more benifits than just sweeping the wing forwards, I also agree that I would build mine with only 1/2" of washout not 1.5" -1.75" (the depth of a 2X4). I was just pointing out that many have swept the wing forwards when installing a 912 or subie on the earlier model planes and none have reported any nasty tip stalls. Everything about these planes flight characteristics is pretty mundane except for those which they were designed. STOL SLOW FUN!

:BC:

The biggest fault I found with the design books is that they go from Spam cans to bigger Spam cans to Supersonic - Not much mention of a J3 or Stearman -Hardly what one needs for slow, cheap (relative term) homebuilts. Still, there are some never-changing aerodynamics in them.

Good Flying

ED in MO

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I am well aware of the 5th bearing. I installed one on a friends Corvair powered KR2S.

Anyone know the installed (flying) weight of a standard Sube install? I've read anywhere from 190-240#.

This Corvair install would have 5th bearing and no redrive. From the get go, I've maintained no 2 cycles, no redrives, at least 4 cylinders preferred in this project. There are numerous other engines that would be very nice (U/L Power, Jabiru to name a few) but their cost likely will not fit this project.

In the beginning of this project, I talked in some length to Brett at Airdale and was then thinking on a Continental up front. Brett thought that was a great idea. He recommended at least 80hp to accuunt for extra weight. . (I had thought 65hp to match the 532/582.) If such Continental would come about at good price, we might lean that way, otherwise, this Corvair runs a smooth as anything you could imagine. I believe the flying weight of the Corvair to be nearly the same as a Cont and only a couple pounds one way or the other.

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Sorry I didn't get the chance to look up any of you at EAA this year. I was there 5 days but only got to "walk around" Sunday morning for a while. The following took up most of my time.

http://www.aviatorsbydesign.com

http://www.aopa.org/aircraft/articles/2012/120809homegrown-efforts-build-aviation-interest.html?WT.mc_id&wtmcid%3B&WT.mc_sect=gan (Also check out the last part of the weekly video at the bottomof the article. (He get's our web site address wrong so use that link above.)

Edited by C150L

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I am well aware of the 5th bearing. I installed one on a friends Corvair powered KR2S.

Anyone know the installed (flying) weight of a standard Sube install? I've read anywhere from 190-240#.

This Corvair install would have 5th bearing and no redrive. From the get go, I've maintained no 2 cycles, no redrives, at least 4 cylinders preferred in this project. There are numerous other engines that would be very nice (U/L Power, Jabiru to name a few) but their cost likely will not fit this project.

In the beginning of this project, I talked in some length to Brett at Airdale and was then thinking on a Continental up front. Brett thought that was a great idea. He recommended at least 80hp to accuunt for extra weight. . (I had thought 65hp to match the 532/582.) If such Continental would come about at good price, we might lean that way, otherwise, this Corvair runs a smooth as anything you could imagine. I believe the flying weight of the Corvair to be nearly the same as a Cont and only a couple pounds one way or the other.

I believe the EA81 with redrive will come in at about 190 - Other Soobs will weigh A LOT MORE -

I can look up Continental weights, but C-65 to C-90 should be about 160, and the 0-200 about 8 pounds heavier, without oil. We have swapped C-65s in two planes, a Luscombe and a J3, for an O-200 and a C-90, and the change in performance was unbelievable, with little change in weight.....Sure wish you could weigh the Corvair. Maybe I can find published weights for it, but they all lie a lot in mags.

ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Posted · Report post

I think your estimate of 190 for a Subby is very optimistic. I have never seen one - with redrive - that was less than 220# installed weight.

You will also find that the Corvair and VW direct drives are much higher rpm range engines requiring a shorter prop. These short props do not work well at slow airspeeds (like an Avid flies at) compared to a larger slow turning prop. I have seen so many of these planes that the builders chose to go what appeared to be the inexpensive route (VW, Corvair) only to find that the engines were unreliable, maintenance intensive, cooling/mount/cowl issues and the planes never or rarely flew. The proof in the pudding for this is how many Avids/Kitfoxes do you see sporting VW or Corvair motors? Very few, and fewer yet with any appreciable amount of time on them.

Subaru conversions are somewhat the exception to this - due to the use of a redrive and more frequent installs. Their trade off is weight, making the plane basically a single seat aircraft...

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Posted · Report post

:lies:...

...:stirthepot:

:snack:...

...:lam:

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:lies:...

...:stirthepot:

:snack:...

...:lam:

I almost understand that reply. Understand or not, I had to laugh.

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Posted · Report post

I almost understand that reply. Understand or not, I had to laugh.

X2 But I totaly "got it"

Doug, you crack me up!

:BC::BC:

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Lost it for now, but somewhere in these 3 pages about your building, Doug, (I think) or someone mentioned about checking the Kitfox 4 and later for wing bracing. Just wanted to let you know that I have the manuals for the 4 and 5 and Magnum. If you have any questions, I may be able to help.

BTW: The later Kitfoxes have a much better diagonal brace setup than earlier Avid/Foxes - instead of bending the ends of the braces, they use a bracket with a small section of tube welded to it, then the brace fits the bracket. Believe they also went to steel braces instead of aluminum ones. Dont know if you can still buy the brackets, but think so. I have pictures - these could be made at home.

ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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I almost understand that reply. Understand or not, I had to laugh.

Dour you are a stirthepot.gif .

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We're about as far as we can go on the fuselage until we have the wings done. Main issue left on the fuse is the wing strut attach points. Once the wings are done, they will be used to make sure the geometry of the lower strut attach points are correct, such that the wings fold back and are even. If not for folding, I know we would have less to deal with but when folded, we do not want the wing tips off even 1/8".

I case anyone recalls our project, we were looking into Corvaire power but now leaning towards VW to shed some weight. Still holding to the notion, I want 4 cycles, no redrive, so,,,, Feel free to hammer me on the VW. Plenty around here have already.

I'm so far behind on updating the web on progress, but in short, the fuse is all welded up including 16" stretch, wider landing gear has been made and attached, control stick/assy and mixer are installed. Mixer relocated under LH seat. Rudder and elevator built and mounted. Horizontal stab built and attached such that we now have a trimmable horiz stab.

Thanks,

Dale

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We're about as far as we can go on the fuselage until we have the wings done. Main issue left on the fuse is the wing strut attach points. Once the wings are done, they will be used to make sure the geometry of the lower strut attach points are correct, such that the wings fold back and are even. If not for folding, I know we would have less to deal with but when folded, we do not want the wing tips off even 1/8".

I case anyone recalls our project, we were looking into Corvaire power but now leaning towards VW to shed some weight. Still holding to the notion, I want 4 cycles, no redrive, so,,,, Feel free to hammer me on the VW. Plenty around here have already.

I'm so far behind on updating the web on progress, but in short, the fuse is all welded up including 16" stretch, wider landing gear has been made and attached, control stick/assy and mixer are installed. Mixer relocated under LH seat. Rudder and elevator built and mounted. Horizontal stab built and attached such that we now have a trimmable horiz stab.

Thanks,

Dale

I'm sure you will catch hell over the VW with all the snowmachine drivers. I see nothing wrong with it if you get a well-made engine. Some rebuilds on the market are crap and others seem to be good. Just do your homework before buying.

LOTS cheaper than those 1930's designed "aircraft engines" with the failing mags and needing 2 spark plugs to light the fire, IMO.

ED in MO

ONE LAST THOUGHT ADDED: You can use a bigger prop and have more power with a VW WITH REDRIVE.

But dont expect, in either case, to have the performance that the Rotax Drivers get.

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Although I have no experience with VW's I was pretty impressed with the advertized engine setups offered and their apparent parts sophistication adapted for AC; but the article a while back in KitPlanes of the guy that used one in his Zenith 701 had all kinds of problems with it overheating and cracking the heads, etc. He even tried large finned heads and seemed to go to a lot of effort to make it work. After all that he was going to pull it and repower it. In the right airplanes such as the Sonnex they seem to work fine but they are fast airplanes and fly well with short little props like you have to run when not using a redrive.

Not to dwell on the EA81 Subie but my Stratus setup has been very reliable and might give you what you are looking for since you haved a stretched airframe. The redrives can be problematic (look at the Eggenfeller reputation) and the first one I had on the EA81 subie that I built I could never get to track the belt properly so I never flew it. I replaced it with the Stratus and it has been totally trouble free. The Stratus cog belt redrive has an extra ball bearing in the drive on the end of the crank that supports the crank at the crank pulley. The prop drive shaft is adjustable for tensioning the belt and tracking so you can adjust it to be exactly parrallel to the crank pulley. After getting it set up I have 150 hours on it and it has never needed to be even adjusted. The maintenance manual says to replace the belt every 300 hours and to grease the bearings, and to replace the bearings every 1000 hours. So far this motor and redrive have been just about like driving as car; I check everything and then go fly. I have just changed the oil and done the scheduled maintenance, like adjusting the valves.

As far as making it a one person airplane; I may push the envelope a bit and plan to build a new set of wings with some modes to strengthen them but it hauls 2 adults and gear better than my Avid did.

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Posted (edited) · Report post

Randy,

Dave Johnson who made the "Reductions" conversions told me that the belt would go 500 hours, and one guy had over 500 on his with almost no wear. Main thing to look for is cracks in the outer cover. He didnt use Gates. I have the name of the maker.

I dont even look at Eggenfeldner - but that is my bias. Ram or RFI and some other are better sources IMO. (and cheaper than Stratus). Dave died, and there is no Reductions company now.

There is a company that makes VW with Redrives - it was in SA or Kitplanes a while back.

ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri

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Great Plains makes VWs with redrives, and has for many years.

But, again I will point out the 800 pound gorilla - Avid and later Kitfox have been around for nearly 30 years, with thousands of flying aircraft. Redrive VWs have been around at least that long too. If they worked on these planes, there would be at least some of them flying. There are, in fact, virtually zero flying.

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