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One of my boys and my C build.


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#21 akflyer

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 03:47 AM

Wide landing gear coming along. Possibly could have been a little taller but as is would be stock but one size larger tubing and about 13" wider with the pair. Rudder taking shape. Tail wheel in place. LOL. 4 new HH spar tubes on wall, waiting for wing rebuild.


How much of a bitch would it be to make that gear taller?? You are going to want more angle of attack than stock! I have the tall gear and still drag the tail wheel every time with the mains 3' off the deck. I could get out ALOT shorter if I had even taller gear like Randy made for his!

You making tail wheel jokes mr :dunno: :hammerhead:


:nutkick: :lol:

:BC:

Don't expect me to be politically correct....
#1 snake oil sales man since 1-22-09
Leonard Perry
Soldotna Alaska
Avid C / MK IV N61PW
582 IVO 72" IFA
Edo 1320
63 Cessna 180 Edo 2870
I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die

"The brave may not live forever, but the cautious don't live at all"

I'd take years off my life, before I take life off my years!


#22 C150L

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 03:50 AM

I'm sssooooo glad I've found this site. So much good and pertinent info coming. I know we will be considering/using a lot from here which we may not have thought of on our own.

Have you made provisions for either manual or electric elevator trim?

Have not made provisions, but strongly considering a trimmable horizontal stabilizer, such as the Clipper (Pipers) have. What's going to make this a little tricky is getting the horiz stab struts braces to move with the horiz stab. I do have an idea on how to easily (ya, right) do it and not add much weight, although the tail would be the place to add a little USEFUL weight.

Ya, place for possible future owners antenna. (I get it.) Good idea.

Little unclear on that additional bracing sketch. Does look like some new bracing comes down to the longerons, where ones wheels would end up, if their gear was torn off after the hard landing after hitting a tree. Not sure where those braces end up on the top end.

Thanks for the info "friends".

Dale

#23 C150L

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Posted 11 November 2011 - 03:59 AM

How much of a bitch would it be to make that gear taller?? You are going to want more angle of attack than stock! I have the tall gear and still drag the tail wheel every time with the mains 3' off the deck. I could get out ALOT shorter if I had even taller gear like Randy made for his!

You making tail wheel jokes mr :dunno: :hammerhead:


:nutkick: :lol:

:BC:



Would literally have to start over. Randy have sketches/drawings on his gear? How much taller is the tall gear and how much taller are Randy's?

#24 C150L

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 01:40 AM

Had to try this.

I had this Koala from 1999 after I sold my 150 and just sold it this summer after getting my FAA medical back. Now I fly my friends 49 Clipper. Should be taking that out tomorrow for awhile.



#25 dholly

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Posted 12 November 2011 - 06:39 AM

Little unclear on that additional bracing sketch. Does look like some new bracing comes down to the longerons, where ones wheels would end up, if their gear was torn off after the hard landing after hitting a tree. Not sure where those braces end up on the top end.

Top end of new tube goes to the center cluster behind the seat back.

Attached Files


-Kitfox IV-1200 TD 912ul Hammerhead Spring / Aerocet 1100 Amphibs (flying)
-Aeropro CV Aerotrek A240 Trigear 912uls SLSA (fixing)
-Airdale Avid+ W.I.B. TD aka the original 'Fat Bastard' (building)
-Kitfox III 582 TD Blue/C Grove Spring (R.I.P.)
-
Avid Flyer Mk-IV TD (sold)

#26 SuberAvid

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Posted 13 November 2011 - 11:28 PM

Would literally have to start over. Randy have sketches/drawings on his gear? How much taller is the tall gear and how much taller are Randy's?



I built a jig to make my gear 5.5" taller than the Airdale wide bungee gear. I kept the same width but it ends up wider on the Avid + becaus the fusalage is 6" wider. I also built it with three connection points to the fusalage to take more hard landing abuse and allow me to build a wider triangle on the gear legs. It turned out good and I am very glad I did it since it made wheel landing in the plane much easier and I don't really have any tendency to drag the tail anymore when comming in slow. I was originally going to make the gear 7" taller but changed my mind at the last minute because the tube lengths looked extremely long. I also increased the OD of all the tubes by one size over the Airdale gear but kept the wall thickness the same and placed the step at midpoint with a support tube to the tube running up to the bungee to brace them all at midpoint. One other thing I did was add a slight camber to my axle /backing plates to compensate for the bungee flex and sag. This pictures are with the plane on my shortee 21" tires so it sits a little taller with it on the 26" Bushwheels

Attached Files


Randy Tyler
Palmer, Alaska
Avid+ / N316DT
Subaru EA-81, IVO Medium IFA 72"

#27 C150L

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Posted 14 November 2011 - 02:37 AM

Hi Randy,

Thanks for the info and pix of a very nice looking Avid.

Couple quick questions.

Do you know if Airdales wide gear is taller than stock Avid gear? If so, how much.

Maybe better yet, how much taller is your gear over stock?

I sure like the way your place looks sitting on that taller gear. Has me thinking,,,,

Thanks again,
Dale

#28 SuberAvid

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Posted 19 November 2011 - 06:24 AM

Hi Randy,

Thanks for the info and pix of a very nice looking Avid.

Couple quick questions.

Do you know if Airdales wide gear is taller than stock Avid gear? If so, how much.

Maybe better yet, how much taller is your gear over stock?

I sure like the way your place looks sitting on that taller gear. Has me thinking,,,,

Thanks again,
Dale





Hi Dale,

I am not sure if the Airdale wide gear is taller than the stock Avid gear or not; I have a set of both so will have to take some measurements and get back to you on that and I will measure my gear height against the stock Avid gear. My whole intent was to keep or increase my angle of attack with the longer Avid+ fusalage. I actually increased it some I think becaus it does not tend to drag the TW on takeoff or landing and my Avid did all the time. (besides, I think it looks better too)

Randy
Randy Tyler
Palmer, Alaska
Avid+ / N316DT
Subaru EA-81, IVO Medium IFA 72"

#29 C150L

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Posted 09 December 2011 - 03:13 AM

Jumping out of sequence on order of pictures I want to post in this topic, but here goes.

The (used) Kitfox controls stick bolted directly to the existing Avid controls stick mounting brackets. If we were not relocating the ,mixer to under the seat, I'm sure this KF mixer would have bolted directly in the Avid mixer mounts as well.

Thanks Doug. With ssooo much left to build for this project, I can just about imagine how many hours we've saved with these KF parts.


Attached File  Control stick install1.jpg   103.13KB   61 downloads

Edited by C150L, 10 December 2011 - 07:26 PM.


#30 dholly

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Posted 19 July 2012 - 02:31 PM

Hey Dale & Son, hope all is well! Have you made much progress on the project this year? You were moving along so fast maybe you're out flying now? :)
-Kitfox IV-1200 TD 912ul Hammerhead Spring / Aerocet 1100 Amphibs (flying)
-Aeropro CV Aerotrek A240 Trigear 912uls SLSA (fixing)
-Airdale Avid+ W.I.B. TD aka the original 'Fat Bastard' (building)
-Kitfox III 582 TD Blue/C Grove Spring (R.I.P.)
-
Avid Flyer Mk-IV TD (sold)

#31 C150L

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 04:23 AM

Hey Dale & Son, hope all is well! Have you made much progress on the project this year? You were moving along so fast maybe you're out flying now? :)


Sorry Doug and folks. Been just a bit busy to post updates. . Been slow progress on the project this year. Some heat reasons, some funds reasons and some other reasons, one being flying the Clipper, so all's not bad. I'll get back in here soon and post some updates.

I'm off all next week but it's time for Oshkosh. Probably most everyday if possible. Maybe see some of you there.

I've also got myself involved with the following exciting program. We'll be in (I believe) the home builders building working on another plane project. See link. Aviators By Design

Dale

Edited by C150L, 21 July 2012 - 04:26 AM.


#32 Ed In Missouri

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 06:30 AM

Sure would like to know weight of the corvair - believe it is heavier than the Soob, especially if you have a redrive.
And probably longer too - need to have it right at firewall.
Guess you know about the mod for a 5th main bearing they say is needed?
If you need farther forward CG, and about 8 more square feet of wing, look at my post on extended leading edges, and photos of mine, in Avidfoxflyers Hanger.
Wishing you success on your build. Lots more work than just a kit.
ED in MO

EDIT: Looking back at some of your posts - swinging wings forward can cause tip stalls - better to extend leading edges, and get more lift from extra wing area, IMO.
ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri, 21 July 2012 - 07:07 AM.


#33 akflyer

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 02:46 PM

Sure would like to know weight of the corvair - believe it is heavier than the Soob, especially if you have a redrive.
And probably longer too - need to have it right at firewall.
Guess you know about the mod for a 5th main bearing they say is needed?
If you need farther forward CG, and about 8 more square feet of wing, look at my post on extended leading edges, and photos of mine, in Avidfoxflyers Hanger.
Wishing you success on your build. Lots more work than just a kit.
ED in MO

EDIT: Looking back at some of your posts - swinging wings forward can cause tip stalls - better to extend leading edges, and get more lift from extra wing area, IMO.
ED in MO


Lots of guys swung the wings forward, and it was a factory recomended "mod" for the guys putting in the heavier engines. If built per manual, there is so darn much washout in the wings I dont think you could get a good tip stall going if you worked at it! When 80% of the wing is stalled (fronm the root outboard) those darn tips are still flying and just hold you in a mush. I have tried every kind of out of coordination configuration on the stalls and I cant get mine or the other 3 I have flown to give me a real break like a spam can will. The only way I have been able to get a "good" break is full power VERY rapid pull the nose up till your looking at the sky at a 60 deg + angle and hold it there till your out of speed. It will break through the horizon then start flying again.

Just my observations on these lil guys and tip stalls.

:BC:

Don't expect me to be politically correct....
#1 snake oil sales man since 1-22-09
Leonard Perry
Soldotna Alaska
Avid C / MK IV N61PW
582 IVO 72" IFA
Edo 1320
63 Cessna 180 Edo 2870
I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die

"The brave may not live forever, but the cautious don't live at all"

I'd take years off my life, before I take life off my years!


#34 Ed In Missouri

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 03:24 PM

Lots of guys swung the wings forward, and it was a factory recomended "mod" for the guys putting in the heavier engines. If built per manual, there is so darn much washout in the wings I dont think you could get a good tip stall going if you worked at it! When 80% of the wing is stalled (fronm the root outboard) those darn tips are still flying and just hold you in a mush. I have tried every kind of out of coordination configuration on the stalls and I cant get mine or the other 3 I have flown to give me a real break like a spam can will. The only way I have been able to get a "good" break is full power VERY rapid pull the nose up till your looking at the sky at a 60 deg + angle and hold it there till your out of speed. It will break through the horizon then start flying again.

Just my observations on these lil guys and tip stalls.

:BC:

Not disagreeing with you on that. However, my aero-engineering design books did not take into account the large amount of washout that these planes have. Eliminating that washout could change stall characteristics with forward sweep. Sort of unknown territory there.
If I was building mine from scratch again, I would only have 1/2 inch of washout, and I would move the crossover tubes forward unless I found a reason that it wouldnt be feasable. Like changing the location of the lower pivot point. Any mod is like opening a new can of worms.
Still, the LE extension gives more lift benefit than just sweeping forward.
ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri, 21 July 2012 - 04:03 PM.


#35 akflyer

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 06:40 PM

Not disagreeing with you on that. However, my aero-engineering design books did not take into account the large amount of washout that these planes have. Eliminating that washout could change stall characteristics with forward sweep. Sort of unknown territory there.
If I was building mine from scratch again, I would only have 1/2 inch of washout, and I would move the crossover tubes forward unless I found a reason that it wouldnt be feasable. Like changing the location of the lower pivot point. Any mod is like opening a new can of worms.
Still, the LE extension gives more lift benefit than just sweeping forward.
ED in MO



I agree that the leading edge extention gives you more benifits than just sweeping the wing forwards, I also agree that I would build mine with only 1/2" of washout not 1.5" -1.75" (the depth of a 2X4). I was just pointing out that many have swept the wing forwards when installing a 912 or subie on the earlier model planes and none have reported any nasty tip stalls. Everything about these planes flight characteristics is pretty mundane except for those which they were designed. STOL SLOW FUN!

:BC:

Don't expect me to be politically correct....
#1 snake oil sales man since 1-22-09
Leonard Perry
Soldotna Alaska
Avid C / MK IV N61PW
582 IVO 72" IFA
Edo 1320
63 Cessna 180 Edo 2870
I would rather die trying to live, than to live trying not to die

"The brave may not live forever, but the cautious don't live at all"

I'd take years off my life, before I take life off my years!


#36 Ed In Missouri

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Posted 21 July 2012 - 09:37 PM

I agree that the leading edge extention gives you more benifits than just sweeping the wing forwards, I also agree that I would build mine with only 1/2" of washout not 1.5" -1.75" (the depth of a 2X4). I was just pointing out that many have swept the wing forwards when installing a 912 or subie on the earlier model planes and none have reported any nasty tip stalls. Everything about these planes flight characteristics is pretty mundane except for those which they were designed. STOL SLOW FUN!

:BC:


The biggest fault I found with the design books is that they go from Spam cans to bigger Spam cans to Supersonic - Not much mention of a J3 or Stearman -Hardly what one needs for slow, cheap (relative term) homebuilts. Still, there are some never-changing aerodynamics in them.
Good Flying
ED in MO

#37 C150L

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:13 PM

I am well aware of the 5th bearing. I installed one on a friends Corvair powered KR2S.

Anyone know the installed (flying) weight of a standard Sube install? I've read anywhere from 190-240#.

This Corvair install would have 5th bearing and no redrive. From the get go, I've maintained no 2 cycles, no redrives, at least 4 cylinders preferred in this project. There are numerous other engines that would be very nice (U/L Power, Jabiru to name a few) but their cost likely will not fit this project.

In the beginning of this project, I talked in some length to Brett at Airdale and was then thinking on a Continental up front. Brett thought that was a great idea. He recommended at least 80hp to accuunt for extra weight. . (I had thought 65hp to match the 532/582.) If such Continental would come about at good price, we might lean that way, otherwise, this Corvair runs a smooth as anything you could imagine. I believe the flying weight of the Corvair to be nearly the same as a Cont and only a couple pounds one way or the other.

#38 C150L

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 02:38 PM

Sorry I didn't get the chance to look up any of you at EAA this year. I was there 5 days but only got to "walk around" Sunday morning for a while. The following took up most of my time.

http://www.aviatorsbydesign.com



http://www.aopa.org/...&WT.mc_sect=gan (Also check out the last part of the weekly video at the bottomof the article. (He get's our web site address wrong so use that link above.)

Edited by C150L, 12 August 2012 - 02:39 PM.


#39 Ed In Missouri

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Posted 12 August 2012 - 10:34 PM

I am well aware of the 5th bearing. I installed one on a friends Corvair powered KR2S.

Anyone know the installed (flying) weight of a standard Sube install? I've read anywhere from 190-240#.

This Corvair install would have 5th bearing and no redrive. From the get go, I've maintained no 2 cycles, no redrives, at least 4 cylinders preferred in this project. There are numerous other engines that would be very nice (U/L Power, Jabiru to name a few) but their cost likely will not fit this project.

In the beginning of this project, I talked in some length to Brett at Airdale and was then thinking on a Continental up front. Brett thought that was a great idea. He recommended at least 80hp to accuunt for extra weight. . (I had thought 65hp to match the 532/582.) If such Continental would come about at good price, we might lean that way, otherwise, this Corvair runs a smooth as anything you could imagine. I believe the flying weight of the Corvair to be nearly the same as a Cont and only a couple pounds one way or the other.

I believe the EA81 with redrive will come in at about 190 - Other Soobs will weigh A LOT MORE -
I can look up Continental weights, but C-65 to C-90 should be about 160, and the 0-200 about 8 pounds heavier, without oil. We have swapped C-65s in two planes, a Luscombe and a J3, for an O-200 and a C-90, and the change in performance was unbelievable, with little change in weight.....Sure wish you could weigh the Corvair. Maybe I can find published weights for it, but they all lie a lot in mags.
ED in MO

Edited by Ed In Missouri, 12 August 2012 - 10:43 PM.


#40 Av8r3400

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Posted 13 August 2012 - 02:28 AM

I think your estimate of 190 for a Subby is very optimistic. I have never seen one - with redrive - that was less than 220# installed weight.

You will also find that the Corvair and VW direct drives are much higher rpm range engines requiring a shorter prop. These short props do not work well at slow airspeeds (like an Avid flies at) compared to a larger slow turning prop. I have seen so many of these planes that the builders chose to go what appeared to be the inexpensive route (VW, Corvair) only to find that the engines were unreliable, maintenance intensive, cooling/mount/cowl issues and the planes never or rarely flew. The proof in the pudding for this is how many Avids/Kitfoxes do you see sporting VW or Corvair motors? Very few, and fewer yet with any appreciable amount of time on them.

Subaru conversions are somewhat the exception to this - due to the use of a redrive and more frequent installs. Their trade off is weight, making the plane basically a single seat aircraft...
Av8r3400

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